Netizens-Digest Wednesday, July 13 2005 Volume 01 : Number 540 Netizens Association Discussion List Digest In this issue: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response [netz] Folksonomies Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:45:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Ronda Hauben Subject: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response I thought folks on the netizens list would find of interest an article I wrote for OhmyNews about the netizen response to an anti social act on a Seoul subway car. The incident and netizen response has drawn comment from the Washington Post and other newspapers. "Netizen Debate Ensues Over 'Dog Poop Girl' Exploring how the Internet and netizens should respond to anti-social public acts..." http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=236643&rel_no=1 "Many of the comments of those condemning the online publication of the photos of the woman and the ridicule, ask what this can lead to. Those who say that she got what she deserved are considering the harmful effect on others of her leaving her dog's turds in a subway car. An aspect of the whole situation that seems in general unrecognized, is that there is online discussion about both what the woman did, and about how netizens should act when faced with such a situation." with best wishes Ronda ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:55:13 -0400 From: "Luis G. Dequesada" Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5865A.D58A81D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ronda: Even though the girl was wrong in not even making an = attempt to clean her dog's feces, letting others clean up after her, I = find that the splashing of her photo all over the internet not only = violates her rights, but is what I call "Big Brotherish". Human rights = and justice would've been better served if her privacy would've been = respected instead of exposed to government and public scrutiny. Take care, Luis "Lou" de Quesada ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronda Hauben=20 To: netizens@columbia.edu=20 Cc: Ronda Hauben=20 Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:45 PM Subject: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen = response I thought folks on the netizens list would find of interest an article = I=20 wrote for OhmyNews about the netizen response to an anti social act on = a=20 Seoul subway car. The incident and netizen response has drawn comment = from=20 the Washington Post and other newspapers. "Netizen Debate Ensues Over 'Dog Poop Girl' Exploring how the Internet and netizens should respond to anti-social = public=20 acts..." = http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=3D236643&rel_= no=3D1 "Many of the comments of those condemning the online publication of = the photos=20 of the woman and the ridicule, ask what this can lead to. Those who = say that=20 she got what she deserved are considering the harmful effect on others = of her=20 leaving her dog's turds in a subway car. An aspect of the whole = situation that=20 seems in general unrecognized, is that there is online discussion = about both=20 what the woman did, and about how netizens should act when faced with = such a=20 situation." with best wishes Ronda - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5865A.D58A81D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Ronda: Even though the girl was wrong in not even making = an=20 attempt to clean her dog's feces, letting others clean up after = her, I find=20 that the splashing of her photo all over the internet not only = violates her=20 rights, but is what I call "Big Brotherish". Human rights and=20 justice would've been better served if her privacy would've been = respected=20 instead of exposed to government and public scrutiny.
Take care,
Luis "Lou" de Quesada
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 = 7:45 PM
Subject: [netz] Online debate = about=20 Korean subway incident and netizen response



I thought folks on the netizens list would find = of=20 interest an article I
wrote for OhmyNews about the netizen = response to an=20 anti social act on a
Seoul subway car. The incident and netizen = response=20 has drawn comment from
the Washington Post and other=20 newspapers.

"Netizen Debate Ensues Over 'Dog Poop = Girl'
Exploring=20 how the Internet and netizens should respond to anti-social public=20
acts..."

http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.= asp?no=3D236643&rel_no=3D1

"Many=20 of the comments of those condemning the online publication of the = photos=20
of the woman and the ridicule, ask what this can lead to. Those = who say=20 that
she got what she deserved are considering the harmful effect = on=20 others of her
leaving her dog's turds in a subway car. An aspect = of the=20 whole situation that
seems in general unrecognized, is that there = is=20 online discussion about both
what the woman did, and about how = netizens=20 should act when faced with such a
situation."

with best=20 = wishes

Ronda





- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C5865A.D58A81D0-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:28:07 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response A bit frightening indeed (thousands of little big brothers instead of one and only big brother). Otherwise the response of netizens is understandable. Dan Ronda Hauben wrote: > > > I thought folks on the netizens list would find of interest an article I > wrote for OhmyNews about the netizen response to an anti social act on a > Seoul subway car. The incident and netizen response has drawn comment > from the Washington Post and other newspapers. > > "Netizen Debate Ensues Over 'Dog Poop Girl' > Exploring how the Internet and netizens should respond to anti-social > public acts..." > > http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=236643&rel_no=1 > > "Many of the comments of those condemning the online publication of the > photos of the woman and the ridicule, ask what this can lead to. Those > who say that she got what she deserved are considering the harmful > effect on others of her leaving her dog's turds in a subway car. An > aspect of the whole situation that seems in general unrecognized, is > that there is online discussion about both what the woman did, and about > how netizens should act when faced with such a situation." > > with best wishes > > Ronda > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:28:50 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: [netz] Folksonomies I think that readers of Netizens list could find the following essay of interest: Folksonomies: power to the people http://www.iskoi.org/doc/folksonomies.htm Daniel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:01:14 -0400 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response At 8:55 PM -0400 7/11/05, Luis G. Dequesada wrote: >Hello Ronda: Even though the girl was wrong in not even making an >attempt to clean her dog's feces, letting others clean up after >her, I find that the splashing of her photo all over the >internet not only violates her rights, What specific rights? >but is what I call "Big Brotherish". Human rights and >justice would've been better served if her privacy would've been >respected instead of exposed to government and public scrutiny. Does she have any responsibility for her acts? If she doesn't accept such, is there to be any enforcement? >Take care, >Luis "Lou" de Quesada There has been much discussion on the Netizens list of open government, going along with the idea of government by consent of the governed. If there is direct democracy, does that not cause a certain loss of privacy if one participates? Is there a reasonable expectation of privacy for someone in a subway train or other public place? I think not. We do start getting into local culture here. In US subways, varying with the city, I would very much like surveillance -- there have been enough incidents of abuse and Ordinary Decent Criminality that I'd like to know there is a police officer waiting at the next stop, rather than my having to deal with threatening people myself. London has had surveillance cameras in wide use, in places where I believe there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. It will be interesting if they contribute to solving the recent bombings. The expectation of crime is probably lower in Korea, which, like Japan, is a "shame-based" (as opposed to "guilt-based") culture. These countries do emphasize social responsibility, and there are benefits to it. I walk a bit differently in the wee hours of Tokyo than I do in New York or Washington. The Washington Post may criticize, but the culture is different in Seoul and Washington. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Ronda Hauben >To: netizens@columbia.edu >Cc: Ronda Hauben >Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:45 PM >Subject: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and >netizen response > > > >I thought folks on the netizens list would find of interest an article I >wrote for OhmyNews about the netizen response to an anti social act on a >Seoul subway car. The incident and netizen response has drawn comment from >the Washington Post and other newspapers. > >"Netizen Debate Ensues Over 'Dog Poop Girl' >Exploring how the Internet and netizens should respond to anti-social public >acts..." > >http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=236643&rel_no=1 > >"Many of the comments of those condemning the online publication of the photos >of the woman and the ridicule, ask what this can lead to. Those who say that >she got what she deserved are considering the harmful effect on others of her >leaving her dog's turds in a subway car. An aspect of the whole situation that >seems in general unrecognized, is that there is online discussion about both >what the woman did, and about how netizens should act when faced with such a >situation." > >with best wishes > >Ronda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:11:52 -0400 From: "Luis G. Dequesada" Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response I think splashing someone's picture all over the internet violates the person's right to privacy. I don't call that "enforcement" I call that informing as in informer. Lou D. >From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" >Reply-To: netizens@columbia.edu >To: netizens@columbia.edu >Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen >response >Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:01:14 -0400 > >At 8:55 PM -0400 7/11/05, Luis G. Dequesada wrote: >>Hello Ronda: Even though the girl was wrong in not even making an attempt >>to clean her dog's feces, letting others clean up after her, I find that >>the splashing of her photo all over the internet not only violates her >>rights, > > >What specific rights? > >>but is what I call "Big Brotherish". Human rights and justice would've >>been better served if her privacy would've been respected instead of >>exposed to government and public scrutiny. > > >Does she have any responsibility for her acts? If she doesn't accept such, >is there to be any enforcement? > >>Take care, >>Luis "Lou" de Quesada > >There has been much discussion on the Netizens list of open government, >going along with the idea of government by consent of the governed. If >there is direct democracy, does that not cause a certain loss of privacy if >one participates? > >Is there a reasonable expectation of privacy for someone in a subway train >or other public place? I think not. > >We do start getting into local culture here. In US subways, varying with >the city, I would very much like surveillance -- there have been enough >incidents of abuse and Ordinary Decent Criminality that I'd like to know >there is a police officer waiting at the next stop, rather than my having >to deal with threatening people myself. London has had surveillance >cameras in wide use, in places where I believe there is no reasonable >expectation of privacy. It will be interesting if they contribute to >solving the recent bombings. > >The expectation of crime is probably lower in Korea, which, like Japan, is >a "shame-based" (as opposed to "guilt-based") culture. These countries do >emphasize social responsibility, and there are benefits to it. I walk a bit >differently in the wee hours of Tokyo than I do in New York or Washington. >The Washington Post may criticize, but the culture is different in Seoul >and Washington. > >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Ronda Hauben >>To: netizens@columbia.edu >>Cc: Ronda Hauben >>Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:45 PM >>Subject: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen >>response >> >> >> >>I thought folks on the netizens list would find of interest an article I >>wrote for OhmyNews about the netizen response to an anti social act on a >>Seoul subway car. The incident and netizen response has drawn comment from >>the Washington Post and other newspapers. >> >>"Netizen Debate Ensues Over 'Dog Poop Girl' >>Exploring how the Internet and netizens should respond to anti-social >>public >>acts..." >> >>http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=236643&rel_no=1 >> >>"Many of the comments of those condemning the online publication of the >>photos >>of the woman and the ridicule, ask what this can lead to. Those who say >>that >>she got what she deserved are considering the harmful effect on others of >>her >>leaving her dog's turds in a subway car. An aspect of the whole situation >>that >>seems in general unrecognized, is that there is online discussion about >>both >>what the woman did, and about how netizens should act when faced with such >>a >>situation." >> >>with best wishes >> >>Ronda > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:54:33 +0200 From: "Ronald John Bartle" Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luis G. Dequesada" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response >I think splashing someone's picture all over the internet violates the >person's right to privacy. I don't call that "enforcement" I call that >informing as in informer. > Lou D. All she needed to do was to clean up the mess - end of story! ron b. / -- / ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:32:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Jay Hauben Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Ronald John Bartle wrote: > All she needed to do was to clean up the mess - end of story! > > ron b. > > > / -- / > > The question is an interesting one. What would more democracy look like? In any case the dog poop story was important in Korea because it was about people trying to act or trying to figure out how to act instead of calling on a state separate from the people to act for them. The woman's act against society was minor but real and some Korean netizens acted to deal with it. If they can find how to act in correct proportion to the little crime they will have accomplished something. Ronda was reporting on the importance of this experimentation toward extending democracy. Take care. Jay ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:53:48 +0000 From: hcb@gettcomm.com Subject: Re: [netz] Online debate about Korean subway incident and netizen response Quoting Jay Hauben : > > > On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Ronald John Bartle wrote: > > > All she needed to do was to clean up the mess - end of story! > > > > ron b. > > > > > > / -- / > > > > > The question is an interesting one. What would more democracy look like? > In any case the dog poop story was important in Korea because it was about > people trying to act or trying to figure out how to act instead of calling > on a state separate from the people to act for them. Are you saying, then, that proper netizen conduct only exists with ad-hoc collaboration in anarchy? Even direct democracy, which is NOT consensus decisionmaking, needs a moderator for the meeting. >The woman's act > against society was minor but real and some Korean netizens acted to deal > with it. If they can find how to act in correct proportion to the little > crime they will have accomplished something. Ronda was reporting on the > importance of this experimentation toward extending democracy. We may have very, very different definitions of democracy. To me, having democracy without a state is either a contradiction in terms, or a euphemism for voluntary anarchy. > > Take care. > > Jay > > ------------------------------ End of Netizens-Digest V1 #540 ******************************