Netizens-Digest Tuesday, April 29 2003 Volume 01 : Number 522 Netizens Association Discussion List Digest In this issue: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment [netz] Million Marihuana March in Slovakia Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Clarification Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? grassroots ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:38:00 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment HCB> I disagree completely. As far as I can tell, Ronda, your definition HCB> of netizenship is completely hostile to capitalism. Perhaps this could be the problem we have been trying to solve? This list was sometimes really quite anti-capitalistic. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- information sharing, not barring -* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:32:45 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment RH> It is just that they can be fired if they try to exercise them RH> in the US and that isn't what rights are about. But you always have a choice, don't you? You can even try to establish company to compete with your previous employer... dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- i have never finished anything, but now i -* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:08:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Ronda Hauben Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Dan Duris wrote: > RH> It is just that they can be fired if they try to exercise them > RH> in the US and that isn't what rights are about. > > But you always have a choice, don't you? You can even try to establish > company to compete with your previous employer... > No you don't always have the choice. If you get fired from one job it becomes very difficult to get another job. And it isn't that everyone wants to set up their own company, nor can everyone. And many small companies go bankrupt etc. So in fact the economic situation of people can be very difficult, especially in the kind of economy that exists now in the US. But it has been difficult for a while for a number of people. Ronda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:12:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Ronda Hauben Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Dan Duris wrote: > HCB> I disagree completely. As far as I can tell, Ronda, your definition > HCB> of netizenship is completely hostile to capitalism. Netizens is about democracy > > Perhaps this could be the problem we have been trying to solve? This > list was sometimes really quite anti-capitalistic. > Are you saying that it is anti-capitalistic to try to have democracy? I am trying to discuss democracy. Why is it that being pro or anti capitalistic becomes an issue? The Internet was created under scientific leadership under the US and other governments. Is this then anti-capitalistic? Is talking about government and scientific leadership anti-capitalistic? I realize there is a set of libertarian ideology that is anti government. That is *not* what netizens is about. Ronda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:23:43 -0400 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment >On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Dan Duris wrote: > >> HCB> I disagree completely. As far as I can tell, Ronda, your definition >> HCB> of netizenship is completely hostile to capitalism. > >Netizens is about democracy > >> >> Perhaps this could be the problem we have been trying to solve? This >> list was sometimes really quite anti-capitalistic. >> > >Are you saying that it is anti-capitalistic to try to have democracy? No, I am not saying that. But I have understood you to say that one does not have citizen rights while being employed, due to the economic power of the employer. I disagree. I think it is totally confusing the democratic message of netizenship to bring in the special cases of one being paid or not paid, or an elected official or not. > >I am trying to discuss democracy. > >Why is it that being pro or anti capitalistic becomes an issue? > >The Internet was created under scientific leadership under the >US and other governments. Is this then anti-capitalistic? > >Is talking about government and scientific leadership anti-capitalistic? When you make the point that the scientists who created the basic net were not Netizens because they were paid to do so, yes. I know a good many of the early pioneers, and I would consider their motivations quite consistent with my understanding of netizenship. > >I realize there is a set of libertarian ideology that is anti >government. That is *not* what netizens is about. > >Ronda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:16:16 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: [netz] Million Marihuana March in Slovakia Hi, on 3rd of May there will be MMM taking part in Bratislava, the capital of Slovakia. I think this is very "netizenish", since the whole thing in Slovakia has been coordinated through internet website Kyberia.sk that is sort of forum website, where people can create their forums and contribute by blogs etc. ;-) dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- "shutdown windows, open the gates" vlad. s. -* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:20:59 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Clarification HCB> A netizen is a citizen who uses the Internet in the pursuit of the HCB> general social good, including participation in the governmental HCB> process. As long as the person's intent is devoted to the social HCB> good, including such things as encouraging universal net access, it HCB> makes no difference if they are paid, hold government office, or any HCB> other economic or political factor. I'll stick to Howard's definition until there is some better out here. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- little brother says: "minimal state!" -* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:40:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Ronda Hauben Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? Commitment It is hard to have an exchange as one's words are distorted and one wonders why it is being done in such a hostile way, Howard. The discussion began when I made the effort to distinguish between the use of "netizen" to describe a net user versus someone that Michael had discovered online as acting in a way that represented a social sense which was termed net.citizen and he called netizen. Then Dan Duris disagreed saying that he contributed to the Internet and he also had to make money to live and that was all part of being a netizen. I disagreed. So a useful discussion began about what is a citizen and there was the basis after discussing this to explore how it related to the sense of a netizen. As part of this I made the effort to distinguish a public official from a citizen and a paid job that one has (even in a public capacity) with acting as a citizen. Instead of exploring this and the disagreements about this, you have taken your views on I am not sure what and used them to claim that what I am saying is something you put together. I asked you to say what you wanted to say, not to say what I am saying. In the process the discussion gets changed to are someone's views "anti-capitalist" and that if you make money at something you are or aren't a netizen. The discussion of citizen is over. You declare that someone else's views are completely hostile to capitalism. Why are you doing this? On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: > >On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Dan Duris wrote: > > > >> HCB> I disagree completely. As far as I can tell, Ronda, your definition > >> HCB> of netizenship is completely hostile to capitalism. > > > >Netizens is about democracy > > > >> > >> Perhaps this could be the problem we have been trying to solve? This > >> list was sometimes really quite anti-capitalistic. > >> > > > >Are you saying that it is anti-capitalistic to try to have democracy? > > No, I am not saying that. But I have understood you to say that one > does not have citizen rights while being employed, due to the > economic power of the employer. I disagree. > > I think it is totally confusing the democratic message of netizenship > to bring in the special cases of one being paid or not paid, or an > elected official or not. We were discussing what a citizen is. And whether a public official is a citizen as well or serving citizens. That is confusing? I felt it was useful but for some reason you don't want to consider this. I wonder why it seems so sensitive an issue for you. After trying to clarify some differences about our views of citizens it seemed it might be easier to understand what the difficulty is discussing about netizens. But you don't want to clarify differences about citizens. Instead you want to declare the discussion off limits. Why are you proposing that a discussion about the nature of citizens is off limits on the netizen list? If this may help us to examine the concept of netizen and if we have different concepts of netizens. Instead you want agreement on your concept of netizens. The discussion about citizens is over. Any distinction we might have gotten at about citizens which may have been helpful about netizens is over. > > > > >I am trying to discuss democracy. > > > >Why is it that being pro or anti capitalistic becomes an issue? > > > >The Internet was created under scientific leadership under the > >US and other governments. Is this then anti-capitalistic? > > > >Is talking about government and scientific leadership anti-capitalistic? > > When you make the point that the scientists who created the basic net > were not Netizens because they were paid to do so, yes. I know a good > many of the early pioneers, and I would consider their motivations > quite consistent with my understanding of netizenship. > I was talking about citizens. Why do you distort what I say and claim I was talking about netizens? I was asking you if government and scientific leadership is anti-capitalist since you claimed that talking about public officials and citizens is confirming your sense that the problem is that there is anti-capitalist discussion going on on the netizens list. The people who developed the Internet were working for government(s), or on government contracts which is interesting as they had the ability then to have a broader purpose than is often possible working for a private company. I was thinking that that is important to remember. But instead you are jumping and drawing your conclusions and cutting off any discussion. Why do you think you can predict the conclusion of the discussion? Why aren't your open to hearing a different point of view? Why do you have to label a different point of view instead of trying to sort out what is being said and stick to what is being said instead of creating all sorts of other conclusions? Is it that there is a different view of government and the value of government, and of citizen and the desired activity of many who are citizens? I am trying to sort this out. But I don't get the sense that you are. Instead you seem hostile. Why? Ronda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:43:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Ronda Hauben Subject: Re[2]: [netz] What is a netizen? grassroots I thought as part of the discussion it would be useful to look at some of what Michael found in his research that led him to come up with the concept of netizen. One aspect was grassroots. Here is what he wrote in "The Net and the Netizen" paper The Net brings people together. People put into connection with other people can be powerful. There is power in numbers. The Net allows an individual to realize his power. The Net, uncontrolled by commercial entities, becomes the gathering, discussion and planning center for many people. The combined efforts of people interested in communication has led to the development and expansion of the global communications system. What's on the Net? Well -- Usenet, Free-Net, e-mail, library catalogs, ftp sites, free software, electronic newsletters and journals, Multi-User Domain/Dungeon (mud)/mush/moo, Internet Relay Chat (IRC), the multimedia world wide web (WWW) and many kinds of data banks. Different servers, like WWW, WAIS, and gophers attempt to order and make utilizing the vast varieties and widespread information easier. There exist both public and private services and sources of information. The public and free services often come about through the voluntary efforts of one or a few people. These technologies allow a person to help make the world a better place by making his or her unique contribution available to the rest of the world. People who have been overlooked or have felt unable to contribute to the world, now can. Also, these networks allow much more open and public interaction over a much larger body of people than available before. The common people have a unique voice -- which is now being aired in a new way. The emphasis is that this new machine introduces every single person as someone special and in possession of a useful resource. NETIZEN COMMENTS ON GRASSROOTS: "Simple -- by access to a vast amount of information and an enormous number of brains!" Brian May "For a geographically sparse group as it is, MU* allows people to get to know one another, the relevant newsgroup gives a sense that there's a community out there and things are happening, and an associated ftp site allows art and writing to be distributed." Simon Raboczi "In summary, nets have helped enormously in the dissemination of information from people knowledgeable in certain areas which would be difficult to obtain otherwise." Brent Edwards "I get to communicate rapidly and cheaply with zillions of people around the world." Rosemary Warren The following examples help to show how this is possible. People are normally unprotected from the profit desires of large companies. Steven Alexander from California was using the Net to try to prevent over charging at gas stations. This is an example of the power of connecting people to uphold what is fair and in the best interest of the common person in this society. From: Steven Alexander "I have started compiling and distributing (on the newsgroup ca.driving) a list of gas prices at particular stations in California to which many people will contribute and keep up to date, and which, I hope, will allow consumers to counteract what many of us suspect is the collusive (or in any case, price-gouging) behavior of the oil companies." A user from Germany also reported using the Net to muckrake. He writes: "A company said they were a [nonprofit organization]. Someone looked them up in the [nonprofit] Register, and they did not exist there. Someone else said that he had contact with the person who sent the letter, only under another company-name, and that he simply ignored this person since he looked like a swindler. So they are swindlers, and people from the Net proved it to us, we then of course did not engage with them at all." The Net has proven its importance in other contemporary critical situations. As the only available line of communications with the rest of the world, the Net helped defeat the attempted coup in the ex-Soviet Union in 1990. The members of the coup either did not know about or understand the role the Russian RELCOM network could play or the connections proved resilient enough for information about the coup to be communicated inside and out of the country in time to inform the world and encourage resistance to the coup.(7) The Net has also proven its value by providing an important medium for students. Students participating in the Chinese Pro-Democracy movement have kept in touch with others around the world via their fragile connection to the Net. The Net provided an easy way of evading government censors to get news around the world about events in China and to receive back encouraging feedback. Such feedback is vital support to keep the fight on when it seems impossible or wrong to do so. In a similar way, students in France used the French Minitel system to organize a successful fight against plans by the French government to restrict admission to government subsidized universities. The information flow on the Net is controlled by those who use the Net. People actively provide the information that they personally and other people want. There is a much more active form of participation than what is provided for by other forms of mass media. Television, radio, magazines are all driven by those who own and determine who will write for them. The Net gives people a media they can control. This control of information is a great power that has not been available before to the common everyday person. For example, Declan McCreesh describes how this makes possible access to the most up to date information. From: Declan McCreesh "You get the most up to date info. that people around the world can get their hands on, which is great. For instance, the media report who wins a Grand Prix, what happened and not a great deal more. On the net, however, you can get top speeds, latest car and technology developments, latest rumors, major debates as to whether Formula 1 or Indy cars are better etc." The Net helps to make the information available more accurate because of the many-to-many or broadcast and read and write capability. That new capability, which is not normally very prevalent in our society, allows an actual participant or observer to report something. This capability gives the power of journalism or the reporter to the individual. This new medium allows the source to report. This is true because the medium allows everyone on-line to make a contribution. The old media instead controls who reports and what they say. The possibility of eyewitness accounts via the net can make the information more accurate. Also this opens up the possibility for a grassroots network. Information is passed from person to person around the world. Thus German citizens could learn about the Chernobyl explosion from the Net before the government decided to release the information to the public via the media. The connection is people to people rather than governments to governments. Citizen Journalists can now distribute to more than those they know personally. The distribution of the writings of ordinary people is the second step after the advent of the inexpensive personal computer in the early 1980s. The personal computer and printer allowed anyone to produce mass quantities of documents. Personal publishing is now joined by wide personal distribution. Not only is there grassroots reporting, but the assumption that filtering is necessary has been challenged. People can learn to sort through the various opinions themselves. Steve Welch disagreed that the Net is a source of more accurate information, but agreed that people develop discriminatory reading skills. From: Steve Welch: "When you get more information from diverse sources, you don't always get more accurate information. However, you do develop skills in discerning accurate information. Or rather, you do if you want to come out of the infoglut jungle alive." Governments that rule based on control of information will succumb eventually to the tides of democracy. As Dr. Sun Yat-Sen of the Chinese Democracy Movement once said, "The worldwide democratic trend is mighty. Those who submit to it will prosper and those who resist it will perish." The Net reintroduces the basic idea of democracy as the grassroots people power of Netizens. Governments can no longer easily keep information from their people. Many groups which do not have an established form of communications available to them have found the Net to be a powerful tool. For example, for people far away from their homeland, the Net provides a new link. From: Godfrey Nolan "The Net has immeasurably increased the quality of my life. I am Irish, but I have been living in England for the past five years. It is a lot more difficult to get information about Ireland than you would expect. However a man called Liam Ferrie who works in Digital in Galway, compiles a newspaper on the weeks events in Ireland and so I can now easily keep abreast of most developments in Irish current affairs, which helps me feel like I'm not losing touch when I go home about twice a year. It is also transmitted to about 2000 Irish people all over the first and third worlds." From: Madhur K. Limdi "I read your above posting and wanted to share my experience with you. I have been a frequent reader of news in Usenet groups, such as soc.culture.indian, misc.news.southasia. Both of these keep me reasonably informed about the happenings in my home country India." Also in the United States, the Net has provide stable communications for people of various religious and sexual persuasions. Many other communities have also found the Net to be a excellent medium to help increase communications: From: Gregory G. Woodbury "We will be going to a march on Washington and are coordinating our plans and travel with a large number of other folks around the country via e-mail and conversations on Usenet." From: Jann VanOver "I'm a member of a Buddhist organization and just found a man in Berkeley who keeps a Mailing List that sends daily guidance and discussions for this group. So I get a little religious boost when I log on each day." From: Carole E. Mah "For me and for many of my friends, the Net is our main form of communication. Almost every aspect of interpersonal communication on the network has a gay/lesbian/bi aspect to it that forms a tight and intimate acquaintanceship which sometimes even boils over into arguments and enmities. This network of connections, friends, enemies, lovers, etc. facilitates political goals that would not otherwise be possible (organizing letter-writing campaigns about the Gays in the Military Ban via the ACT-UP list, being able to send e-mail directly to the White House, finding out about activism, bashing, etc. in other states and around the world, etc)." From: Robert Dean "As a member of the science fiction community, I've met quite a few people on the net, and then in person." ____________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of Netizens-Digest V1 #522 ******************************