Netizens-Digest Thursday, April 24 2003 Volume 01 : Number 512 Netizens Association Discussion List Digest In this issue: [netz] Question for Luis Re: [netz] CNN.com - Virus mutations add to SARS puzzle - Apr. 23,2003 Re: [netz] CNN.com - Virus mutations add to SARS puzzle - Apr. 23,2003 [netz] LEAVING THE LIST Re[2]: [netz] w3c standards Re: [netz] LEAVING THE LIST Re: Re[2]: [netz] w3c standards [netz] about what happened on the netizens list Re: [netz] Question for Luis Re: [netz] Question for Luis Re: [netz] LEAVING THE LIST ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 12:24:52 -0400 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: [netz] Question for Luis I'll follow up on your answer, but might I ask how many email messages you receive in a typical day? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 12:36:12 -0400 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re: [netz] CNN.com - Virus mutations add to SARS puzzle - Apr. 23,2003 >Mark: I am not familiar with the policies of "promed" at all. Howard >is the one that >suggested me to check on it and I will. However since he mentions >that "promed" has >restrictions on what can be e-mailed and posted I replied to him >that then what's >the use in posting any of their stuff. Mostly, it's that their information very carefully balances being extremely current with reasonable verification by a panel of internationally recognized authorities. A post on PROMED is unlikely to be a rumor. I am on many lists where conspiracy theorists are constantly posting their unsubstantiated views on government conspiracies, plots by religions and the like. The same lists have useful content. How much time must I spend sorting through the irrelevancies? >According to Howard its a source of medical >and epidemiological information. > I think knowing >about SARS is useful communications, because is a dangerous epidemic. Luis, Are you assuming that none of us has access to CNN? I keep a browser window open to it at all times. Now -- when you speak of "knowing" about SARS, what do you have in mind? About all the CNN article says is there is an epidemic in some areas. The article doesn't contain any guidelines for action by individuals, although those do exist on websites such as www.cdc.gov. What would you think people will do with the information you copied and sent? Whenever I make a post to any list, I ask myself first -- will people be able to improve their knowledge because of what I am posting? Are there actions they can take as a result of it? Is it likely people have already gotten the material from other sources? I see this list as a place to raise issues that then are discussed, in the interest of finding solutions. You say "I am tired of getting into angry debate and confrontations over every little thing that pops up on the list." I don't see any response to you as angry or confrontational. But if there is going to be discussion and consensus, there will be differences of views. There are likely to be (hopefully) polite confrontations, out of which may come a product where the conflicts have been resolved? Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:52:26 -0400 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] CNN.com - Virus mutations add to SARS puzzle - Apr. 23,2003 Hello Howard: No, I am not assuming that some of you have no access to CNN. But there might be someone else on the list who did not read the article and then I thought it would be of interest for the person to read, since it deals with a life threatening epidemic. As far as angry debate and confrontation. You might not notice but your replies are often filled with it, even with an article about SARS. Right now you are confronting me with posting something about SARS. Earlier you implied that my posting would somehow cause panic. Every time anyone like Jay or myself post something it seems to draw an unpleasant or angry reaction from you, because you seem to think it doesn't belong on the list. So that's why I said to Mark that I am getting tired of it, meaning that hey, there are better things in life to do than to confront a seemingly upset individual on this list on a daily basis. Luis "Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote: > >Mark: I am not familiar with the policies of "promed" at all. Howard > >is the one that > >suggested me to check on it and I will. However since he mentions > >that "promed" has > >restrictions on what can be e-mailed and posted I replied to him > >that then what's > >the use in posting any of their stuff. > > Mostly, it's that their information very carefully balances being > extremely current with reasonable verification by a panel of > internationally recognized authorities. A post on PROMED is unlikely > to be a rumor. > > I am on many lists where conspiracy theorists are constantly posting > their unsubstantiated views on government conspiracies, plots by > religions and the like. The same lists have useful content. How much > time must I spend sorting through the irrelevancies? > > >According to Howard its a source of medical > >and epidemiological information. > > > I think knowing > >about SARS is useful communications, because is a dangerous epidemic. > > Luis, > > Are you assuming that none of us has access to CNN? I keep a browser > window open to it at all times. > > Now -- when you speak of "knowing" about SARS, what do you have in > mind? About all the CNN article says is there is an epidemic in some > areas. The article doesn't contain any guidelines for action by > individuals, although those do exist on websites such as www.cdc.gov. > > What would you think people will do with the information you copied > and sent? Whenever I make a post to any list, I ask myself first -- > will people be able to improve their knowledge because of what I am > posting? Are there actions they can take as a result of it? Is it > likely people have already gotten the material from other sources? > > I see this list as a place to raise issues that then are discussed, > in the interest of finding solutions. You say "I am tired of getting > into angry debate and confrontations over every little thing that > pops up on the list." > > I don't see any response to you as angry or confrontational. But if > there is going to be discussion and consensus, there will be > differences of views. There are likely to be (hopefully) polite > confrontations, out of which may come a product where the conflicts > have been resolved? > > Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:24:42 -0400 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: [netz] LEAVING THE LIST Hello: Since some or many of my postings seem to cause discomfort, unpleasant reactions, confrontations, etc. I have notified the Haubens that I will leave this list. Taking into consideration various health problems I have, such as high blood pressure and other health concerns, I think it would even be unhealthy for me to remain. Therefore I wish everyone on this list the best of luck in all your endeavors. Luis de Quesada ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:07:16 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re[2]: [netz] w3c standards HCB> You obviously know (X)HTML better than I do. Is there a capability by HCB> which the client can state capabilities on login, so the server could HCB> automatically switch to a low-bandwidth mode, or does that have to be HCB> programmed explicitly? HCB> I'm thinking of the Netizen with limited connectivity. No. But you can offer two options (as today many sites do) - low bandwidth (HTML only) and broadband (flash if needed or more images). You can even offer the user text-only site, which I would prefer sometimes... Since server always send the same content to user, it would be complicated to ask browser whatever bandwidth pages you prefer. It would be even more complicated for webmaster to produce two separate sites I guess. Dynamic pages+databases offer solution for this though - You can program the whole thing to output only text if requested or images+html in other case. I know almost nothing about accessibility standards, but from what I remember there was some proposal on W3C site. (http://www.w3c.org) Although all accessibility things were more content-oriented - filling in ALTernative texts for images, TITLES for links or forms, creating keyboard shortcuts to access different form-fields etc. But I am getting too technical over here. So, that's for today, Howard. ;-) dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- if you save the world too often, it begins to expect it -* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:08:53 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re: [netz] LEAVING THE LIST I don't understand your reasons, I guess. I don't think anybody was confronting you with something unpleasant. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- until we party again, my friend -* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:35:20 +0000 (GMT) From: gds@best.com (Greg Skinner) Subject: Re: Re[2]: [netz] w3c standards Dan Duris wrote: > HCB> You obviously know (X)HTML better than I do. Is there a capability by > HCB> which the client can state capabilities on login, so the server could > HCB> automatically switch to a low-bandwidth mode, or does that have to be > HCB> programmed explicitly? > HCB> I'm thinking of the Netizen with limited connectivity. > No. But you can offer two options (as today many sites do) - low > bandwidth (HTML only) and broadband (flash if needed or more images). > You can even offer the user text-only site, which I would prefer > sometimes... > > Since server always send the same content to user, it would be > complicated to ask browser whatever bandwidth pages you prefer. It > would be even more complicated for webmaster to produce two separate > sites I guess. Actually, in some cases, the server will send different content to the user. For example, on some sites that use frames, when I use Lynx to browse them, they will either tell me to get a frames-capable browser or offer a link to a no-frames page. > Dynamic pages+databases offer solution for this though - You can > program the whole thing to output only text if requested or > images+html in other case. In theory, the browser and web server might negotiate options using Accept: commands or some such. I'm just speculating here ... I would have to look at a sample of browser and web server implementations to see is this is feasible. I suspect this issue has come up on some W3C forum if not an IETF forum. - --gregbo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:19:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Ronda Hauben Subject: [netz] about what happened on the netizens list Dear Lou I am sorry you had such a frustrating time. I am sorry I didn't have the ability to be helpful We should talk about what has happened on Friday at supper. warmly ronda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:08:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Jay Hauben Subject: Re: [netz] Question for Luis Hi, I heard from Lou that he could not any longer participate in the netizens list. His departure is a loss for the list. The following question from Howard may be a piece of a growing difficulty here: On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: > I'll follow up on your answer, but might I ask how many email > messages you receive in a typical day? Why would a question like this be asked? In the context of a controversy it would appear like a non sequitor. When someone looks for secondary issues or questions it becomes hard to stay on the main questions. I have not followed the discssion but this question seems out of place and without constructive purpose. I hope long time readers of this list will judge whether Lou has been making a valuable contribution in the long time spirit of the list. The point of netizens has always been to defend people's right to contribute from their point of view to the ongoing discussion that seeks to empower people to take part in the decisions that effect them. In the past every effort has been made to make posters feel their contributions were welcomed and respected no matter how much we might differ with them. I am sad that I have not been able to join the debate and defend the democratic environment where no one threatens unsubscription and no one feels driven out. I hope in a month or two to be able to rejoin the list and help it continue its search for the way to a more genuine democracy respectful of the mass of people as the best source of political decisions. Take care. Jay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 02:39:11 -0400 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re: [netz] Question for Luis >Hi, > >I heard from Lou that he could not any longer participate in the netizens >list. His departure is a loss for the list. > >The following question from Howard may be a piece of a growing difficulty >here: > >On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: > >> I'll follow up on your answer, but might I ask how many email >> messages you receive in a typical day? > >Why would a question like this be asked? In the context of a controversy >it would appear like a non sequitor. When someone looks for secondary >issues or questions it becomes hard to stay on the main questions. The point I wanted to elaborate upon was to find out if Luis routinely receives large volumes of emails. If he did not, I wanted to compare and contrast the experience of working with the large volume of mail that comes from lists without any posting guidelines. > >I have not followed the discssion but this question seems out of place and >without constructive purpose. > >I hope long time readers of this list will judge whether Lou has been >making a valuable contribution in the long time spirit of the list. > >The point of netizens has always been to defend people's right to >contribute from their point of view to the ongoing discussion that seeks >to empower people to take part in the decisions that effect them. In the >past every effort has been made to make posters feel their contributions >were welcomed and respected no matter how much we might differ with them. My question to you, Jay, is whether any results are expected from these contributions. I have made numerous, and I believe substantive, posts about real Internet issues affecting the digital divide, regulatory issues, and others. It was my intention to seek some work areas for the group, areas where a contribution to the process actually could be made. As you point out, people should be empowered to take part in decisions that affect them. I see such empowerment as goal-directed. You speak of political decisions -- sometimes there are going to be decisions that are not universally accepted. Is there no room for dissent in what you see as empowerment? It also depends how you define welcome and respect. I can certainly value an individual, and still consider their point completely invalid. Luis, it appeared, took any constructive criticism of his points as personal attacks, whether they were meant that way or not. I tried to find a way to have a constructive exchange of ideas, but I could never find a way to get around the defensiveness. I don't think it's inappropriate to bring up real-world technical limitations in proposals, such as whether something that works with tens or hundreds of people will work with thousands or millions -- or will work with large numbers of messages. > >I am sad that I have not been able to join the debate and defend the >democratic environment where no one threatens unsubscription and no one >feels driven out. > >I hope in a month or two to be able to rejoin the list and help it >continue its search for the way to a more genuine democracy respectful of >the mass of people as the best source of political decisions. > >Take care. > >Jay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 04:48:27 EDT From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com Subject: Re: [netz] LEAVING THE LIST - --part1_145.fe3b591.2bd8fedb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/23/03 6:10:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes: > Hello: Since some or many of my postings seem to cause discomfort, > unpleasant reactions, confrontations, etc. I have notified the Haubens > that I will leave this list. Taking into consideration various health > problems I have, such as high blood pressure and other health concerns, > I think it would even be unhealthy for me to remain. > Therefore I wish everyone on this list the best of luck in all your > endeavors. > Luis de Quesada > Luis, my assumption was that everyone was going to grow and adapt once they had a better glimpse of the bigger picture. Everyone's combined experience helps to generate this picture. The only thing that I have fundamentally disagreed with is what you believe the purpose of this list to be. Albeit this disagreement is not a trivial issue, I believe in tolerance and compromise. Honestly Luis, I value your depth of experience but have been perpetually discouraged by your trenchant cynicism of the, yes, imperfect political frameworks we must _practically_ work within to pursue Netizen objectives. Why can't we just dare to do great things first, then do them, and complain last? Then when we complain, we complain about how hard it was to accomplish the 'unaccomplishable' feat over a beer. That is where I stand. Lord knows, I personally don't want to be held partly responsible for anyone's decision to leave. This is a really touchy subject here. Larry - --part1_145.fe3b591.2bd8fedb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/23/03 6:10:49 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes:

Hello: Since some or many of my= postings seem to cause discomfort,
unpleasant reactions, confrontations, etc. I have notified the Haubens
that I will leave this list. Taking into consideration various health
problems I have, such as  high blood pressure and other health concerns= ,
I think it would even be unhealthy for me to remain.
Therefore I wish everyone on this list the best of luck in all your
endeavors.
Luis de Quesada


Luis, my assumption was that everyone was going to grow and adapt once they=20= had a better glimpse of the bigger picture.  Everyone's combined experi= ence helps to generate this picture.  The only thing that I have fundam= entally disagreed with is what you believe the purpose of this list to be.&n= bsp; Albeit this disagreement is not a trivial issue, I believe in tolerance= and compromise.

Honestly Luis, I value your depth of experience but have been perpetually di= scouraged by your trenchant cynicism of the, yes, imperfect political framew= orks we must _practically_ work within to pursue Netizen objectives.  <= BR>
Why can't we just dare to do great things first, then do them, and complain=20= last?  Then when we complain, we complain about how hard it was to acco= mplish the 'unaccomplishable' feat over a beer.  That is where I stand.=

Lord knows, I personally don't want to be held partly responsible for anyone= 's decision to leave.

This is a really touchy subject here.

Larry
 - --part1_145.fe3b591.2bd8fedb_boundary-- ------------------------------ End of Netizens-Digest V1 #512 ******************************