Netizens-Digest Tuesday, April 8 2003 Volume 01 : Number 480 Netizens Association Discussion List Digest In this issue: Re: [netz] More or less democracy Re: [netz] Question about the list Re: [netz] censorship Re[2]: [netz] privatization Re[2]: [netz] censorship Re[2]: [netz] Question about the list Re[2]: [netz] More or less democracy Re[2]: [netz] More or less democracy Re: [netz] censorship Re: What do you hope is the purpose of the Netizens list: (Was: [netz] censorship) Re: [netz] Question about the list Re: [netz] Question about the list ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:33:56 -0400 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re: [netz] More or less democracy >Howard: If you call democracy a permissive kindergarten so be it. I didn't say that. I said that an environment where anyone could say anything without constraint is a permissive kindergarten. Even the most permissive, participatory forms of government, such as the classic New England town meetings, have some constraints in order to be sure all are heard, that actual proposals result, and that appropriate actions are taken. My local county board meets in open session where anyone can listen but only witnesses are called, followed by a period where any comment will be heard -- except that there are time limits (typically 2 hours for discussion, with individuals limited to 10 minutes or so). When there were no time limits, one individual would often monopolize the entire comment period. >It is your right >to do so, but I still call it democracy. You seem to have a problem with >permissiveness, I don't. Apparently you seem to like to control >people, I don't. So >there we have differences of opinions. >Lou D. > I agree that we disagree. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:11:30 -0400 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] Question about the list Hello: You could've said that the co-dependent name calling and your comedy after that was not intended for the Haubens and I, it sounded like it was. So I'm glad you clarified it and I was wrong. I can imagine you have hacktivist capabilities as well as being some sort of an explosives expert. I am glad and relieved that you say you are not trying to intimidate me or use your skills against me. Dirty Harry used to say to his victims, "go ahead make my day",pointing his humongous revolver at them, being non violent I am beyond those practices or threats. Since our debate is getting nowhere you are not going to convince or intimidate me a and since this is consuming far more of my time than I can afford, I will recess. However I will continue to post whatever I like since its my right as a netizen and let anyone reply as is their right to do so. Its a shame and I regret that a misunderstanding went so far as cause all this heated debate. Lou D. "Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote: > >Howard: I do not take any criticism, replies, etc. to what I say as > >bullyism. I > >respect criticism, the right to reply freedom of speech, etc. I did > >object to what > >you and Mark were doing a few days ago, when Mark I think referred > >to Jay, Ronda > >and I because of our postings and even to himself as co-dependents > >and then you > >receiving those statements with alacrity and even writing a little > >comedy about > >them, something like "would you please press the elevator button for > >me, because I > >am mentally unable to", or something to that effect. I regard that > >as an insult and > >a lack of respect for the Haubens as myself. > > First, my response with the codependent joke was to Mark, not you. > I'm amazed that anyone will take it seriously. > > Second, the quote was more that the codependent gets someone guilty > enough to push the button for them. That is actually a fair > statement when considered in the context of Mark and I finding > ourselves guiltily drawn into discussions we had meant to ignore. > > Third, if you regard humor not even directed at you or the Haubens as > an insult and lack of respect, you have my sincere pity. Someone once > suggested that the requisite for political correctness is the total > removal of the sense of humor. > > On a very practical basis, the oppressed people of totalitarian > states have historically made extensive use of humor as a coping > mechanism. I'm familiar with many such in Slavic and Jewish > contexts. Most Cubans I've met have been delightful, passionate (in a > good sense) people, and I suspect there is a wonderful body of > contemporary political humor there. > > >As far as postings are concerned my position is as always. I insist > >on democracy > >here at netizens. I have the right to post about salmon cookery or > >whatever if I > >want to and if you disagree you can post whatever you like about it. > >I have made a > >special request that the name calling stop. > > To be perfectly honest, I have not seen anyone calling anyone else > names. Indeed, I have been extremely careful to avoid any > descriptors, even when some might be quite acceptable to the subject, > such as "activist." > > Luis, if I intended to insult you, there would not be the slightest > question in anyone's mind that I was doing so. > > >I hope it did and will stop and if it > >will not, I can also take that, because in a democracy even insults > >are allowed, > >however if you resort to them and to making fun of others, then expect angry > >reactions and replies, expect to be challenged. You will not have a > >last word on > >that. > > >As far as hacktivism, I am not afraid of hacktivism, it is terrorism. > > As far as I am concerned, there is no difference between the two. I, > personally, have the skills to damage infrastructure with high > explosives or with computer networks. I could cause far more damage > and be less likely to be stopped or apprehended using hacking. > > >I am > >not afraid of terrorism, computers and servers can be restored > > Try telling that to the hospital patients who are endangered because > their medical records have been altered, or had a denial of access, > due to hacktivism. The most recent case was in Washington State. > > >and many times > >hacktivists are located and arrested > > Extremely rare, unfortunately. > > >and tried and the threat of any sort of legal > >retribution to stop my postings, does not affect me either, because > >if it did, I > >wouldn't even be in this forum. As far as workplace pressures I am > >not afraid of > >them either, but they do exist. Jay was a victim of them and that is > >why we are > >trying to keep the internet free of the fenagling and corrupt > >bosses. I hope you're > >not trying to scare me with hacktivism and other retributions? > > Listen carefully. I am not trying to scare or threaten you. I am > trying to establish that I am engaging in what I consider appropriate > intellectual exchange, and I am trying to show how different > oppression would be. > > >I am not > >transferring the responsibility of for justifying those services to > >the Haubens, > >but I think they're more educated in that area than I am. > >To finalize this useless debate, I can assure you of one thing, if > >your intention > >is to control this list, to mold it to your opinions, you will be > >replied to and > >challenged. > >Luis > > If a participant in any list doesn't intend to have their opinions > have some effect on the list, why bother to participate? Molding it > to opinion can be a participatory, consensus process. > > But if you still want to challenge, I can think of a few responses > from the "Dirty Harry" movie. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:14:03 -0400 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] censorship - --------------63CBE8CD602F13E279E3D58C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Larry: I just told Howard these postings are consuming far more of my time than I can really afford. I am bugging out for a while. I tried to bring democracy and respect back to the list. So you do your postings, I'll do mine and good luck. Lou D. AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/7/03 12:49:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > lgd1@columbia.edu writes within a retort to Mark: > > >> Like I said and I will say it >> over and over again, the attempt to censor was there, although I >> realize it was >> not an enforceable censorship because thank our lucky stars you and >> your friends >> do not have that power on this list, if you did Ronda, Jay and I >> would've been >> kicked out of it a long time ago. >> Luis > > Luis, it would not be a benefit for anyone to be removed from this > list. As I said probably yesterday, I ultimately believe in the > professionalism of all who post here or at least their intention to be > professional. That is why at least I am still here. > > At this point, I do think we are using the wrong word; we are not > trying to censor, we are trying to focus. Let us not suppress > anything, but let us concurrently encourage a specific agenda. > > Is not that language more pleasing to you? > > Larry - --------------63CBE8CD602F13E279E3D58C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Larry: I just told Howard these postings are consuming far more of my time than I can really afford. I am bugging out for a while. I tried to bring democracy and respect back to the list. So you do your postings, I'll do mine and good luck.
Lou D.

AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/7/03 12:49:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes within a retort to Mark:
 
Like I said and I will say it
over and over again, the attempt to censor was there, although I realize it was
not an enforceable censorship because thank our lucky stars you and your friends
do not have that power on this list, if you did Ronda, Jay and I would've been
kicked out of it a long time ago.
Luis

Luis, it would not be a benefit for anyone to be removed from this list.  As I said probably yesterday, I ultimately believe in the professionalism of all who post here or at least their intention to be professional.  That is why at least I am still here.

At this point, I do think we are using the wrong word; we are not trying to censor, we are trying to focus.  Let us not suppress anything, but let us concurrently encourage a specific agenda.

Is not that language more pleasing to you?

Larry

- --------------63CBE8CD602F13E279E3D58C-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:03:38 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re[2]: [netz] privatization LDQ> how's czech and slovakia's economy doing lately? Perhaps you can tell us Czech economy is doing better than Slovak and it's nothing wrong about it. Czech rep. was more industrialized than Slovakia since the beginning of 20th century , so it's just common development. I can tell you I am very happy we have democracy and big corporations are coming here. If we didn't we would still have goverment-owned telecommunication monopoly. And I can tell you that they are still doing problems for other companies and so I have to pay for every minute connected and doesn't have any other alternatives - cable, ADSL or even wireless internet. It's too expensive and it would stay that way for next 1 or 2 years. But thanks to BIG corporations all of you in States could be connected in 4 hours to new telephone line and pay only monthly fee for local calls. I was in US last summer and I can tell you that 25 dolars per month is great, when your minimal wage is 6.75 (California). I pay 11 dollars monthly fee and then have to pay 1.5 dollar for each hour spent connected. And average monthly income in Slovakia is about 320 dollars, I guess... So, thanks for asking, our economy is doing all right. And thanks to our early EU membership I will likely go somewhere else since it's sometimes quite communist-like with telecommunications here. And internet for me and my work is necessity. Free market rulez! dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- if you save the world too often, it begins to expect it -* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:03:55 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re[2]: [netz] censorship I was always mentioning totalitarian states in connection to internet in those countries, since I have been writing my amster thesis on that. LDQ> if you like. It is your right to do so since this is a democratic forum, this is America and LDQ> this is netizens, Gustav Husak is not in charge here! You are being childish over here. But paraphrasing you: "It's your choice to be childish." As explanation for others: Husak was Czechoslovakia's last communist president. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- until we party again, my friend -* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:58:42 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re[2]: [netz] Question about the list LDQ> here at netizens. I have the right to post about salmon cookery or whatever if I LDQ> want to and if you disagree you can post whatever you like about it. I have made a But there are special lists for cooks and to send recipes! I have to repeat it: it's not about censorship, it's not about spamming this list with numerous replies. On some lists there is even rule not to send more than e.g. 3 messages a day. It would be nice to see it here, (although I am sending more sometimes) since it could bring more focused and comprehendible messages. It's all about tying to be more focused as Larry (?) said. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- the way is: libertarianism -* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:01:48 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re[2]: [netz] More or less democracy HCB> I agree that we disagree. :))))))))) Quote of the day! dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- win sux, use mr. red hat :-) -* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 15:20:55 -0400 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re[2]: [netz] More or less democracy >HCB> I agree that we disagree. > >:))))))))) Quote of the day! > >dan Dan, on a really good day, I can disagree with myself. :-) But I've had more fun when someone walks up to me and says "I think you are a lying bastard." "Yes." "What? You agree you're a lying bastard?" "No, but I am willing to agree that you think that. I've never met you before, but you haven't lied to me as far as I know, so I'll accept that's what you think." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 14:48:20 -0400 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] censorship Hello: I am well aware of who Gustav Husak was or still is, providing he is still alive,that's why I used the analogy, I know he was Czechoslovakia last communist boss. You're right its my choice to be childish. I will post as I please.I was telling Howard that these postings are taking more time than I can really afford, so I'm bugging out. Lou D. Dan Duris wrote: > I was always mentioning totalitarian states in connection to internet > in those countries, since I have been writing my amster thesis on that. > > LDQ> if you like. It is your right to do so since this is a democratic forum, this is America and > LDQ> this is netizens, Gustav Husak is not in charge here! > You are being childish over here. But paraphrasing you: "It's your > choice to be childish." > > As explanation for others: Husak was Czechoslovakia's last communist > president. > > dan > -------------------------- > email: dusoft@staznosti.sk > ICQ: 17932727 > > *- until we party again, my friend -* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:23:24 +0200 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re: What do you hope is the purpose of the Netizens list: (Was: [netz] censorship) I thought this list was dealing mostly with cross-over of social sciences and technology (internet mostly). Also since I am interested in cooperative nature of internet, I subscribed to read about this, too. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- this is cookie. good cookie, sweet cookie, email cookie. -* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 14:56:43 -0400 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] Question about the list My last reply to you: If that's the way you see it, I respect your opinion. However I will not adhere to it and I will post whatever I feel about posting, because that's what the Haubens intended this forum to be. This is just out of principle though, my postings are and will continue to be far and few between, so if I were you I wouldn't worry at all about them and besides they're out of focus and most likely, uneducated, so why worry? I really wasn't going to post anymore, before this whole debate started. But now its ended its finished, I cannot devote any more time to it. I see you use a libertarian logo? Trying to prevent a topic from being posted does not sound as too libertarian to me, but then life is full of surprises. Take care and good luck to you. Lou D. Dan Duris wrote: > LDQ> here at netizens. I have the right to post about salmon cookery or whatever if I > LDQ> want to and if you disagree you can post whatever you like about it. I have made a > But there are special lists for cooks and to send recipes! I have to > repeat it: it's not about censorship, it's not about spamming this > list with numerous replies. On some lists there is even rule not to > send more than e.g. 3 messages a day. It would be nice to see it here, > (although I am sending more sometimes) since it could bring more > focused and comprehendible messages. > > It's all about tying to be more focused as Larry (?) said. > > dan > -------------------------- > email: dusoft@staznosti.sk > ICQ: 17932727 > > *- the way is: libertarianism -* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:02:30 -0400 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] Question about the list Hello Howard: One last thing about the misunderstandings that caused all the controversy and for clarification. What did you mean when you told Jay he was "demaning himself" by posting the anti-war article? Lou D. "Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote: > >Howard: I do not take any criticism, replies, etc. to what I say as > >bullyism. I > >respect criticism, the right to reply freedom of speech, etc. I did > >object to what > >you and Mark were doing a few days ago, when Mark I think referred > >to Jay, Ronda > >and I because of our postings and even to himself as co-dependents > >and then you > >receiving those statements with alacrity and even writing a little > >comedy about > >them, something like "would you please press the elevator button for > >me, because I > >am mentally unable to", or something to that effect. I regard that > >as an insult and > >a lack of respect for the Haubens as myself. > > First, my response with the codependent joke was to Mark, not you. > I'm amazed that anyone will take it seriously. > > Second, the quote was more that the codependent gets someone guilty > enough to push the button for them. That is actually a fair > statement when considered in the context of Mark and I finding > ourselves guiltily drawn into discussions we had meant to ignore. > > Third, if you regard humor not even directed at you or the Haubens as > an insult and lack of respect, you have my sincere pity. Someone once > suggested that the requisite for political correctness is the total > removal of the sense of humor. > > On a very practical basis, the oppressed people of totalitarian > states have historically made extensive use of humor as a coping > mechanism. I'm familiar with many such in Slavic and Jewish > contexts. Most Cubans I've met have been delightful, passionate (in a > good sense) people, and I suspect there is a wonderful body of > contemporary political humor there. > > >As far as postings are concerned my position is as always. I insist > >on democracy > >here at netizens. I have the right to post about salmon cookery or > >whatever if I > >want to and if you disagree you can post whatever you like about it. > >I have made a > >special request that the name calling stop. > > To be perfectly honest, I have not seen anyone calling anyone else > names. Indeed, I have been extremely careful to avoid any > descriptors, even when some might be quite acceptable to the subject, > such as "activist." > > Luis, if I intended to insult you, there would not be the slightest > question in anyone's mind that I was doing so. > > >I hope it did and will stop and if it > >will not, I can also take that, because in a democracy even insults > >are allowed, > >however if you resort to them and to making fun of others, then expect angry > >reactions and replies, expect to be challenged. You will not have a > >last word on > >that. > > >As far as hacktivism, I am not afraid of hacktivism, it is terrorism. > > As far as I am concerned, there is no difference between the two. I, > personally, have the skills to damage infrastructure with high > explosives or with computer networks. I could cause far more damage > and be less likely to be stopped or apprehended using hacking. > > >I am > >not afraid of terrorism, computers and servers can be restored > > Try telling that to the hospital patients who are endangered because > their medical records have been altered, or had a denial of access, > due to hacktivism. The most recent case was in Washington State. > > >and many times > >hacktivists are located and arrested > > Extremely rare, unfortunately. > > >and tried and the threat of any sort of legal > >retribution to stop my postings, does not affect me either, because > >if it did, I > >wouldn't even be in this forum. As far as workplace pressures I am > >not afraid of > >them either, but they do exist. Jay was a victim of them and that is > >why we are > >trying to keep the internet free of the fenagling and corrupt > >bosses. I hope you're > >not trying to scare me with hacktivism and other retributions? > > Listen carefully. I am not trying to scare or threaten you. I am > trying to establish that I am engaging in what I consider appropriate > intellectual exchange, and I am trying to show how different > oppression would be. > > >I am not > >transferring the responsibility of for justifying those services to > >the Haubens, > >but I think they're more educated in that area than I am. > >To finalize this useless debate, I can assure you of one thing, if > >your intention > >is to control this list, to mold it to your opinions, you will be > >replied to and > >challenged. > >Luis > > If a participant in any list doesn't intend to have their opinions > have some effect on the list, why bother to participate? Molding it > to opinion can be a participatory, consensus process. > > But if you still want to challenge, I can think of a few responses > from the "Dirty Harry" movie. ------------------------------ End of Netizens-Digest V1 #480 ******************************