Netizens-Digest Tuesday, April 8 2003 Volume 01 : Number 477 Netizens Association Discussion List Digest In this issue: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd) Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd) Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:00:58 EDT From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd) - --part1_1c4.7cbbdbf.2bc43e2a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/7/03 12:01:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lindeman@bard.edu writes: > Actually, my main gripe with Jay is that he is mostly keeping quiet, instead > of > addressing serious substantive concerns of list members. I have not tried > to > shut him or anyone else up. I don't believe I ever said that he was > demeaning > himself. And I have no "confederates" on the list. > > Mark > I would like to hear more from Jay myself. Larry - --part1_1c4.7cbbdbf.2bc43e2a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 4/7/03 12:01:52 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, lindeman@bard.edu writes:

Actually, my main gripe with Ja= y is that he is mostly keeping quiet, instead of
addressing serious substantive concerns of list members.  I have not tr= ied to
shut him or anyone else up.  I don't believe I ever said that he was de= meaning
himself.  And I have no "confederates" on the list.

Mark


I would like to hear more from Jay myself.

Larry - --part1_1c4.7cbbdbf.2bc43e2a_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:16:12 -0400 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd) - --------------81E0644D2F7EB80BEDACC7A9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Larry: I also value your friendship and presence in netizens. However we do have differences of opinions and those differences are brought forth in this forum because of its democratic nature and debated on and so forth. We do have a difference in the perception of what this list is or ought to be. I do not call the free exchanges of ideas or my fighting for the right to post whatever "masturbation". And by the way I find the use of that word in our list a bit distasteful, however you used it and it is your right to do so. I also disagree when you bring up censorship, self-censorship, etc. Netizens as a democratic forum does not stand for censorship in any form or shape. As an old fighter for democracy I want to caution you what seem to be, according to your postings, your political philosophy, like you can't show distrust in elected officials, etc. They seem to me a bit dictatorial. The germans, the russians, the cubans and the iraqis, just to mention a few, all traveled down the "no criticism to those in power road" and all were devoured by tyrants. May I suggest you go back to democracy 101 and brush up on it? Its not about taking crap from those in power silently. Take care, Lou D. AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/7/03 9:57:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > lgd1@columbia.edu writes: > > >> Hello: I am glad you recognize that you, Howard and Larry do not >> have powers to >> censor. As you heard the Haubens and particularly Ronda, netizens is >> a vehicle for >> communications and a vehicle for democracy, for freedom of >> expression. To move to >> something else as you suggest, because you do not want to read about >> opinions >> contrary to the war,or because such postings are perceived or >> misinterpreted as >> not a mission of netizens is acquiescing to censorship, its saying >> don't write >> about this any more because its bothering me or goes against my >> opinion. You also >> have the right not to read, or simply ignore what's been written and >> you have the >> right to reply in another posting.To write or post about the war in >> Iraq is very >> much a netizens mission and concern. Ronda, Jay and I and any other >> netizen will >> write about the war as long as we want to. You Howard, Larry and >> Dan can also >> write what you want to about it pro-or con, that is democracy, you >> have the >> undisputable right to post whatever you want since our forum is >> democratic. The >> only thing I beg of you and Howard and any other netizen is to stop >> the insults, >> like co-dependent, "Jay demeaning himself because he posts against >> the war" etc. >> But in a democracy you can also post insults, but I must warn that >> they do not >> create healthy debate and they inevitably provoke angry and >> irrational reactions, >> which does our list and netizens no good, that is also a way of >> destroying the >> list. I did not misunderstand you when you angrily replied to Jay >> and Ronda's >> postings accusing them of destroying the list. Not to talk about >> events, hinders >> communications and is what actually destroys the list. >> Luis de Quesada > > Dear Luis: > > I probably answered this in another post or so; I am getting to these > posts at a slower rate than they are being created. This past day, > there have been probably 20 posts -- higher than average. > > I know what the problem is. At which point this list attracts more > than 20 or 30 different entries per day, and no one knows what this > list is really about, the focus will degenerate into noise. There > will be debate over truly non-germane issues. I really don't think > even you will appreciate having to mine through posts and arguments > that really don't contribute to the enhancement of the quality of life > of the Netizen. > > The only reason why I am here is to understand how the Internet is > developing so that I can eventually help influence policy. I want to > understand and help develop 'digital law.' I am here to make change. > If I am introducing something to complain about, it is only to > illustrate a problem that I am looking forward to solving. And > perhaps I would be looking to enlist the support of those who post > here to help me in that pursuit. > > Luis, our freedom or rather luxury to discuss anything that we want > will practically vary with contributor load. The fewer people that > post, the more divergent we can be. The more people that post, the > less divergent we can be. > > You have to assume that we are being read by potentially hundreds of > people on any given day. We all have to provide some kind of > leadership or else we will lose the list. > > We all have to self-censor so that the list can represent a legitimate > scholarly resource and so that it may truly honor the memory of > Michael Hauben. I feel obligated to help continue his work. > > Honestly, it would be interesting to consider a year's worth of this > list -- to watch as a problem is introduced and defined and refined. > It would be entertaining to see how distributed minds can address that > problem and provide solutions. It would be gratifying to see how > these solutions that we discussed over a year's time are implemented > worldwide. You could even publish that archival material. It would > have practical value at least in terms of providing a real example of > how distributed processing can work. > > I want to contribute to something that has marketable value. Why do > you think the level of language here is above colloquial? There is a > reason for that. I am not a foppish 'tart.' We have an obligation to > be precise so as to be useful. > > Lastly, regarding my expectations here, I am 'results-oriented.' If I > am going to spend time here writing, I ultimately want to see some > results. Otherwise it is all just masturbation. I am not for that. > I am for fecundity. > > And Luis, we are all friends here. Otherwise, it is truly edifying to > read from you. > > Please, please, don't be so cross. When I saw the mound of words, > without the necessary formation of readily digestible paragraphs, I > knew immediately that we were in for a 'thrashing.' > > Larry - --------------81E0644D2F7EB80BEDACC7A9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Larry: I also value your friendship and presence in netizens. However we do have differences of opinions and those differences are brought forth in this forum because of its democratic nature and debated on and so forth. We do have a difference in the perception of what this list is or ought to be. I do not call the free exchanges of ideas or my fighting for the right to post whatever "masturbation". And by the way I find the use of that word in our list a bit distasteful, however you used it and it is your right to do so. I also disagree when you bring up censorship, self-censorship, etc. Netizens as a democratic forum does not stand for censorship in any form or shape. As an old fighter for democracy I want to caution you what seem to be, according to your postings, your political philosophy, like you can't show distrust in elected officials, etc. They seem to me a bit dictatorial. The germans, the russians, the cubans and the iraqis, just to mention a few, all traveled down the "no criticism to those in power road" and  all were devoured by tyrants. May I suggest you go back to democracy 101 and brush up on it? Its not about taking crap  from those in power silently.
Take care,
Lou D.

AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/7/03 9:57:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes:
 
Hello: I am glad you recognize that you, Howard and Larry do not have powers to
censor. As you heard the Haubens and particularly Ronda, netizens is a vehicle for
communications and a vehicle for democracy, for freedom of expression. To move to
something else as you suggest, because you do not want to read about opinions
contrary to the war,or because such postings are perceived or misinterpreted as
not a mission of netizens is acquiescing to censorship, its saying don't write
about this any more because its bothering me or goes against my opinion.  You also
have the right not to read, or simply ignore what's been written and you have the
right to reply in another posting.To write or post about the war in Iraq is very
much a netizens mission and concern. Ronda, Jay and I and any other netizen will
write about the war as long as we want to. You  Howard, Larry and Dan can also
write what you want to about it pro-or con, that is democracy, you have the
undisputable right to post whatever you want since our forum is democratic. The
only thing I beg of you and Howard and any other netizen is to stop the insults,
like co-dependent, "Jay demeaning himself because he posts against the war" etc.
But in a democracy you can also post insults, but I must warn that they do not
create healthy debate and they inevitably provoke angry and irrational reactions,
which does our list and netizens no good, that is also a way of destroying the
list. I did not misunderstand you when you angrily replied to Jay and Ronda's
postings accusing them of destroying the list. Not to talk about events, hinders
communications and is what  actually destroys the list.
Luis de Quesada

Dear Luis:

I probably answered this in another post or so; I am getting to these posts at a slower rate than they are being created.  This past day, there have been probably 20 posts -- higher than average.

I know what the problem is.  At which point this list attracts more than 20 or 30 different entries per day, and no one knows what this list is really about, the focus will degenerate into noise.  There will be debate over truly non-germane issues.  I really don't think even you will appreciate having to mine through posts and arguments that really don't contribute to the enhancement of the quality of life of the Netizen.

The only reason why I am here is to understand how the Internet is developing so that I can eventually help influence policy.  I want to understand and help develop 'digital law.'  I am here to make change.  If I am introducing something to complain about, it is only to illustrate a problem that I am looking forward to solving.  And perhaps I would be looking to enlist the support of those who post here to help me in that pursuit.

Luis, our freedom or rather luxury to discuss anything that we want will practically vary with contributor load.  The fewer people that post, the more divergent we can be.  The more people that post, the less divergent we can be.

You have to assume that we are being read by potentially hundreds of people on any given day.  We all have to provide some kind of leadership or else we will lose the list.

We all have to self-censor so that the list can represent a legitimate scholarly resource and so that it may truly honor the memory of Michael Hauben.  I feel obligated to help continue his work.

Honestly, it would be interesting to consider a year's worth of this list -- to watch as a problem is introduced and defined and refined.  It would be entertaining to see how distributed minds can address that problem and provide solutions.  It would be gratifying to see how these solutions that we discussed over a year's time are implemented worldwide.  You could even publish that archival material.  It would have practical value at least in terms of providing a real example of how distributed processing can work.

I want to contribute to something that has marketable value.  Why do you think the level of language here is above colloquial?  There is a reason for that.  I am not a foppish 'tart.'  We have an obligation to be precise so as to be useful.

Lastly, regarding my expectations here, I am 'results-oriented.'  If I am going to spend time here writing, I ultimately want to see some results.  Otherwise it is all just masturbation.  I am not for that.  I am for fecundity.

And Luis, we are all friends here.  Otherwise, it is truly edifying to read from you.

Please, please, don't be so cross.  When I saw the mound of words, without the necessary formation of readily digestible paragraphs, I knew immediately that we were in for a 'thrashing.'

Larry

- --------------81E0644D2F7EB80BEDACC7A9-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:20:42 -0400 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off (fwd) - --------------CC1CACB52139C6D88FDEE7C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Larry: Want to do something great? Be truly democratic and preach in favor of open criticism of those in power who abuse their constituencies and their power, thinking that they privately own the office they were elected to temporarily occupy and against the bosses all those little Sadams that pollute corporate america, that would be something great. Lou D. AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/7/03 11:42:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > lgd1@columbia.edu writes: > > >> As to asking yourself "so what" I do not know what you mean by that. >> But I still >> must point out to you, again, that any attempt on your part or any >> one else's to >> persuade or prevent me or any netizen to stop posting about the war >> or anything >> they want to post will be met with a reply. I am not Jay, who kept >> quiet when you >> and your confederates chose to insult him and shut him up by telling >> him he was >> "demaning himself". With me you don't get away with it. Understand? >> Luis de Quesada >> >> lindeman@bard.edu wrote: >> >> >Luis, >> > >> >I respectfully disagree with just about everything in your message, >> especially >> >your assertions of not having misunderstood me. >> > >> >So now I must put the question back to myself: So what? >> > >> >Mark > > Am I one of Mark's confederates? I am afraid I know the answer to > that one. > > ... just being facetious. But really Luis; C'mon. I cannot really > speak for anyone else but I think we all fervently want to do > something great here. Otherwise we should all just pack up and join a > chat room at AOL. > > Larry - --------------CC1CACB52139C6D88FDEE7C3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Larry: Want to do something great? Be truly democratic and preach in favor of open criticism of those in power who abuse their constituencies and their power, thinking that they privately own the office they were elected to temporarily occupy and against the bosses all those little Sadams that pollute corporate america, that would be something great.
Lou D.

AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/7/03 11:42:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes:
 
As to asking yourself "so what" I do not know what you mean by that. But I still
must point out to you, again, that any attempt on your part or any one else's to
persuade or prevent me or any netizen to stop posting about the war or anything
they want to post will be met with a reply. I am not Jay, who kept quiet when you
and your confederates chose to insult him and shut him up by telling him he was
"demaning himself". With me you don't get away with it. Understand?
Luis de Quesada

lindeman@bard.edu wrote:

>Luis,
>
>I respectfully disagree with just about everything in your message, especially
>your assertions of not having misunderstood me.
>
>So now I must put the question back to myself: So what?
>
>Mark

Am I one of Mark's confederates?  I am afraid I know the answer to that one.

... just being facetious.  But really Luis; C'mon.  I cannot really speak for anyone else but I think we all fervently want to do something great here.  Otherwise we should all just pack up and join a chat room at AOL.

Larry

- --------------CC1CACB52139C6D88FDEE7C3-- ------------------------------ End of Netizens-Digest V1 #477 ******************************