Netizens-Digest Monday, March 31 2003 Volume 01 : Number 447 Netizens Association Discussion List Digest In this issue: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off Re: [netz] Many voices online and off Re: [netz] Many voices online and off Re: [netz] Many voices online and off [netz] Cuba Re: [netz] Cuba Re: [netz] Many voices online and off ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:04:07 EST From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off - --part1_67.d15c57b.2bb4c147_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/26/03 10:13:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, ronda@panix.com writes: > L>I'm confused. I fail to see how I can learn about the Internet by > examining > L>the march. > > It is interesting that the early research on the ARPANET was during > the period of the anti Vietnam movement. > > You might find it of interest to read Netizens, or at least some > of the chapters Michael wrote for it. > > In chapter 7, "Behind the Net: The Untold Story of the ARPANET and > Computer Science" Michael describes why he feels the open process > of the RFC's was so important. > > "The open process encouraged and led to the exchange of information. > Technical development is only successful when information is > allowed to flow fereely and easily between the parties involved. > Encouraging participation is the main principle that made the development > of the Net possible. > > "Statements like the ones contained in RFC-3 are democratic in their > support of a process of openness. They were written during the late > 1960s, a time of popular protest for freedom of speech. People were > demanding more of a say in how their countries were run. The open > environment needed to develop new technologies is consistent with the > cry for more democracy that students and others raised throughout > the world during the 1960s...." > > http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/ > > Cheers > > Ronda > What does "the open process of the RFCs" have to do with the comparison with the Internet and the marches? I am still confused. By the way, I have read Netizens, I agree -- totally mandatory reading, twice. Larry - --part1_67.d15c57b.2bb4c147_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/26/03 10:13:22 PM Eastern Standar= d Time, ronda@panix.com writes:

L>I'm confused.  I fail= to see how I can learn about the Internet by examining
L>the march.

It is interesting that the early research on the ARPANET was during
the period of the anti Vietnam movement.

You might find it of interest to read Netizens, or at least some
of the chapters Michael wrote for it.

In chapter 7, "Behind the Net: The Untold Story of the ARPANET and
Computer Science" Michael describes why he feels the open process
of the RFC's was so important.

"The open process encouraged and led to the exchange of information.
Technical development is only successful when information is
allowed to flow fereely and easily between the parties involved.
Encouraging participation is the main principle that made the development of the Net possible.

"Statements like the ones contained in RFC-3 are democratic in their
support of a process of openness. They were written during the late
1960s, a time of popular protest for freedom of speech. People were
demanding more of a say in how their countries were run. The open
environment needed to develop new technologies is consistent with the
cry for more democracy that students and others raised throughout
the world during the 1960s...."

http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/

Cheers

Ronda


What does "the open process of the RFCs" have to do with the comparison with= the Internet and the marches?  I am still confused.

By the way, I have read Netizens, I agree -- totally mandatory reading, twic= e.

Larry - --part1_67.d15c57b.2bb4c147_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:45:40 -0500 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off >In a message dated 3/26/03 10:13:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, >ronda@panix.com writes: > >>L>I'm confused. I fail to see how I can learn about the Internet >>by examining >>L>the march. >> >>It is interesting that the early research on the ARPANET was during >>the period of the anti Vietnam movement. So was Mary Quant's early research on the miniskirt. The correlation? Incidentally, no packet switching systems were used operationally during the Vietnam war. Circuit and message switching only. As far as I can remember, there wasn't a Fuzzball closer than, perhaps, Tokyo. >> >>You might find it of interest to read Netizens, or at least some >>of the chapters Michael wrote for it. >> >>In chapter 7, "Behind the Net: The Untold Story of the ARPANET and >>Computer Science" Michael describes why he feels the open process >>of the RFC's was so important. >> >>"The open process encouraged and led to the exchange of information. >>Technical development is only successful when information is >>allowed to flow fereely and easily between the parties involved. >>Encouraging participation is the main principle that made the development >>of the Net possible. >> >>"Statements like the ones contained in RFC-3 are democratic in their >>support of a process of openness. They were written during the late >>1960s, a time of popular protest for freedom of speech. People were >>demanding more of a say in how their countries were run. The open >>environment needed to develop new technologies is consistent with the >>cry for more democracy that students and others raised throughout >>the world during the 1960s...." >> >>http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/ >> >>Cheers >> >>Ronda >> > > >What does "the open process of the RFCs" have to do with the >comparison with the Internet and the marches? I am still confused. RFCs, which are developed today in a considerably more open process than in 1970, are the fundamental technical specifications for the Internet. > >By the way, I have read Netizens, I agree -- totally mandatory reading, twice. > >Larry I'm also confused with Ronda's continuing to bring up the RFC process as it was in the 1960s, as opposed to how it works today, for better or worse. If you will, as a primary source (author/coauthor of multiple RFCs and active elsewhere in the process) rather than a secondary source about things that happened 30-plus years ago. Incidentally, I do know some of the people personally from that period. Ronda has what I will call a rather rosy picture of the pre-Internet NWG and related efforts, which were a MUCH less open process than they are today. These documents were developed in invitational workshops and on private mailing lists by a very small number of researchers. I remember trying to get access in 1970 through about 1973, and was unable to do so because I couldn't get a military sponsor. I'm sorry -- I am less concerned with what is written in Netizens that what I personally experienced, and I will trust my own memory. It gives you a special insight into the process to be able to think of some of the people in the very early phases. For example, my most cherished memory of Dan Lynch is taking him to his first Ethiopian restaurant, where he was so delighted with the cuisine that he inadvertently ate all the injera pancakes on the table, and, before we could stop him, attempted to eat his napkin (covered with a fresh spoonful of curry). While Vint Cerf is a charming human being and brilliant scientist, the more I can forget his oenophile dialogues with wine stewards, the happier I will be. For all he tries, Lyman Chapin will never be a wine snob on Vint's level. At the time (well, early 70s) I was involved in parallel (even competitive) standards development in the "formal" international standards bodies, which began converging signficantly in the 1980s even though there is still distinct separation. The quasigovernmental standards bodies have a less open procedure than anything in the process of the IETF and its predecessors. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 04:55:03 EST From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off - --part1_1d7.5db0d39.2bb575f7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/27/03 4:46:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, hcb@gettcomm.com writes: > It gives you a special insight into the process to be able to think > of some of the people in the very early phases. For example, my most > cherished memory of Dan Lynch is taking him to his first Ethiopian > restaurant, where he was so delighted with the cuisine that he > inadvertently ate all the injera pancakes on the table, and, before > we could stop him, attempted to eat his napkin (covered with a fresh > spoonful of curry). While Vint Cerf is a charming human being and > brilliant scientist, the more I can forget his oenophile dialogues > with wine stewards, the happier I will be. For all he tries, Lyman > Chapin will never be a wine snob on Vint's level. > Not that it is relevant to the discussion, nonetheless Howard, your anecdotes make me laugh. Larry - --part1_1d7.5db0d39.2bb575f7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/27/03 4:46:34 PM Eastern Standard= Time, hcb@gettcomm.com writes:

It gives you a special insight=20= into the process to be able to think
of some of the people in the very early phases. For example, my most
cherished memory of Dan Lynch is taking him to his first Ethiopian
restaurant, where he was so delighted with the cuisine that he
inadvertently ate all the injera pancakes on the table, and, before
we could stop him, attempted to eat his napkin (covered with a fresh
spoonful of curry). While Vint Cerf is a charming human being and
brilliant scientist, the more I can forget his oenophile dialogues
with wine stewards, the happier I will be. For all he tries, Lyman
Chapin will never be a wine snob on Vint's level.


Not that it is relevant to the discussion, nonetheless Howard, your anecdote= s make me laugh.

Larry - --part1_1d7.5db0d39.2bb575f7_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 07:42:20 -0500 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off >In a message dated 3/27/03 4:46:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, >hcb@gettcomm.com writes: > >>It gives you a special insight into the process to be able to think >>of some of the people in the very early phases. For example, my most >>cherished memory of Dan Lynch is taking him to his first Ethiopian >>restaurant, where he was so delighted with the cuisine that he >>inadvertently ate all the injera pancakes on the table, and, before >>we could stop him, attempted to eat his napkin (covered with a fresh >>spoonful of curry). While Vint Cerf is a charming human being and >>brilliant scientist, the more I can forget his oenophile dialogues >>with wine stewards, the happier I will be. For all he tries, Lyman >>Chapin will never be a wine snob on Vint's level. >> > > >Not that it is relevant to the discussion, nonetheless Howard, your >anecdotes make me laugh. I'm really not trying to get into he-said-she-said regarding the RFC process as it was and is, but I think some of these anecdotes raise credibility as opposed to secondary interpretation of 30-year-old documents promulgated in high-context venues. While the singular of data is not anecdote, some personal experiences I can relate, possibly including humor, can give significant insights into the communications patterns and socialization of the Internet technical community. I should share an extended Lyman Chapin episode. Sue Hares (co-chair of the BGP routing group), Lyman Chapin and I gave a panel on dangerous limitations (and possible workarounds) of the global routing system at the ISOC meeting in Stockholm a couple of years ago. Sue had just gotten off an airplane from a multi-stop business trip, had a cold, and was severely jet-lagged. THe three of us, and a couple of colleagues, went for a working dinner to the Opera Cafe, one of Stockholm's most delightful restaurant. Lyman was enthusiastic about the wine list, and insisted that having several people was a wonderful opportunity to try several new vintages. Several vintages too many, I'm afraid, for Sue's fatigue. Luckily, I was alert and sitting next to her, so I was able to catch her as she fell asleep in her chair, about to fall face-first into her dessert. While we have a superb profesional relationship, I suspect it would have been a stressful event to clean her face of the raspberry sauce. > >Larry Might I suggest, Larry, that there may be a vague relevance? The "in-crowd" of Internet engineering, whose communication often is by email and lacking social nuances [1], often find it useful to introduce "tribal tales" and plain humor, in non-distracting volumes, to lubricate the flow of communications. Many (certainly not all) traditional protests are more confrontational. Yes, of course, dignified passive resistance is confrontational, but in a way very different from "guerilla theater" or attempts to "shut it down." I cannot help but share a brief dialogue on another list where one person observed that the introduction of political correctness often implied a drive for surgical removal of the sense of humor, and, indeed, of mutual respect in dialogue. So look at the role of humor in long-standing virtual communities, and you may see something that fills, in a very different way, some of the social lubrication of the old "smoke-filled rooms" and "political clubs." I am not being in the slightest bit facetious when I recount how a great deal of the real technical insights at IETF meetings (rather than the mail process) comes not from formal meetings where views are formally presented [2], but in hallway and bar conversations. I can think of quite a few successful technical compromises that were hammered out over beer and munchies. [1] I shall not dignify with an answers those who claim True Engineers [TM] are created without social graces :-) [2] One of the human communications problems of IETF and other networking professional meetings, as opposed, say, to medical conferences, is that the average presenter has absolutely terrible oral communications skills. Remember that some of the meetings can have over 1000 people in them, requiring a large room. Yet all too many presenters still believe it is adequate to take a page of normally-sized typescript, photocopy it onto a transparency, and display it with an overhead projector. Such materials are unreadable beyond the first row or two, at best. One increasingly common workaround, since many of the technical subspecialists can't or won't prepare more useful presentation graphics, is to assume everyone in the room has a (preferably) wireless laptop, and to send streaming video of the screen to each lap. This still has major limitations. Another common complaint is that many engineers mumble and don't make their comments audible. Oh, there are people that are known as significant exceptions -- I bless my high school and the years of dramatics courses I took. Personally, I can usually make myself heard clearly in the back rows without use of amplification, but I recognize voice training goes into that. In-person voice training, however, won't solve a newer problem -- Internet videocasting of presentations all over the world, which have no useful audio component if presenters don't speak clearly into the microphone that is the source of the multicast audio content. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 02:07:18 +0100 From: Dan Duris Subject: [netz] Cuba Hi Luis, I didn't know you are an exiled dissident. Do you have any news on the petition signed by more people (was that 11000+?) than required? Is the Cuban parliament still silent about it? One of my case studies in my master thesis is about Cuba and its internet. It was really interesting to read about access and all constraints and regulations that are imposed on internet. I hope that Castro's regime will fall soon after his death. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- drop the taxes, liberate citizens -* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:35:30 -0500 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] Cuba Hello Dan: I left Cuba back in 1961, I was 19 then and I'm 60 now! I was among the first dissidents to face the regime,virtually alone. As you know, Castro betrayed us, by concealing the fact, since his days in the Sierra Maestra and even during his first year in power, that his intentions were to establish a pro-soviet regime which the majority of those of us who opposed and fought Batista didn't want, because of its dictatorial implications. Like my father before me I have been an advocate of democracy in Cuba since day one.I've always been a "priista" or advocate of former president Carlos Prio, Cuba's last democratically elected president. I don't have the data on how many people on the petition signed. The Cuban parliament is nothing but a rubberstamp for Castro. Although things have been somewhat improving for the growing opposition to the regime. I'm sure the Castro regime is trying to manipulate the internet, most likely e-mails are closely monitored and if my instincts are correct, the average cuban living there, better watch what he or she writes in an e-mail. Again, thank you for your concern for us and for being a friend of cuban democracy. Luis de Quesada Dan Duris wrote: > Hi Luis, > > I didn't know you are an exiled dissident. Do you have any news on > the petition signed by more people (was that 11000+?) than required? > Is the Cuban parliament still silent about it? > > One of my case studies in my master thesis is about Cuba and its > internet. It was really interesting to read about access and all > constraints and regulations that are imposed on internet. I hope that > Castro's regime will fall soon after his death. > > dan > -------------------------- > email: dusoft@staznosti.sk > ICQ: 17932727 > > *- drop the taxes, liberate citizens -* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 06:43:16 EST From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com Subject: Re: [netz] Many voices online and off - --part1_143.db3d442.2bb983d4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/28/03 7:44:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, hcb@gettcomm.com writes: > Might I suggest, Larry, that there may be a vague relevance? The > "in-crowd" of Internet engineering, whose communication often is by > email and lacking social nuances [1], often find it useful to > introduce "tribal tales" and plain humor, in non-distracting volumes, > to lubricate the flow of communications. > I must agree that anything that will be an expedient to intelligibility or clear conveyance of an idea should be exploited. We are trying to communicate here. I meant by "relevance," my response that the "anecdote" was funny -- and it was indeed. Larry - --part1_143.db3d442.2bb983d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/28/03 7:44:00 AM Eastern Standard= Time, hcb@gettcomm.com writes:

Might I suggest, Larry, that th= ere may be a vague relevance?  The
"in-crowd" of Internet engineering, whose communication often is by
email and lacking social nuances [1], often find it useful to
introduce "tribal tales" and plain humor, in non-distracting volumes,
to lubricate the flow of communications.


I must agree that anything that will be an expedient to intelligibility or c= lear conveyance of an idea should be exploited.  We are trying to commu= nicate here.  I meant by "relevance," my response that the "anecdote" w= as funny -- and it was indeed.

Larry - --part1_143.db3d442.2bb983d4_boundary-- ------------------------------ End of Netizens-Digest V1 #447 ******************************