Netizens-Digest Saturday, March 22 2003 Volume 01 : Number 438 Netizens Association Discussion List Digest In this issue: Re: [netz] Internet in Iraq: Better than Bombs [netz] Netizens and Public Health (was free spech) Re: [netz] Netizens and Public Health (was free spech) Re: [netz] Netizens and Public Health (was free spech) Re[2]: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...) Re[2]: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...) Re: [netz] Netizens and Public Health (was free spech) Re: [netz] Internet in Iraq: Better than Bombs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:59:50 +0100 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re: [netz] Internet in Iraq: Better than Bombs You should really read the paper by these two people. Boas, Taylor C. a Kalathil, Shanthi: The Internet and State Control in Authoritarian Regimes: China, Cuba, and the Counterrevolution (Information Revolution and World Politics Project - Global Policy Program, Number 21, July 2001), http://www.ceip.org http://www.ceip.org/files/Publications/wp21.asp I am not so naive as to believe the internet in Iraq would be a panacea to a dictatorship. Just compare it with Cuba - people are very poor, there are electricity blackouts, low rate of literacy, low rate of schooling and education, computer equipment is expensive, good telecommunication network doesn't exist and there are other problems. Iraq would be just other state, where internet was under control of authoritarian regime. JH> The Iraqi government sees the Internet as a form of JH> getting information from abroad, and as a source of JH> income through charging relatively high fees to use the JH> Internet. Even so it's cheaper to send an e-mail than JH> make a phone call in Iraq. The same thing in Cuba. JH> home. The cost is 50,000 Iraqi dinars (about US$25) for 25$ for three months!!! I guess that's average income for 1 and half month. I don't have numbers, but you can easily find it at www.wolrdbank.org JH> But at least some Iraqis now have direct access to JH> information from outside the country, though there's no JH> doubt that the authorities closely monitor their online JH> activity. There's a degree of official censorship too. Iraqis JH> cannot access Web sites whose contents are considered JH> "contradictory to Islamic law." Any Iraqi clicking on a link Same as in China. JH> to a site that contains sexual or pornographic material is JH> receives an "Access Denied" message. Also banned are Same as in CHina. JH> The Web site of the Iraqi News Agency has a substantial JH> section in English, though when we checked the latest JH> headlines were three days old, suggesting that stories JH> have to go through a rigorous checking procedure before JH> they're published. Yeah, just another proactive strategy of Iraqi government. Check Kalathil and Boas for details on what 'proactive' means. And the last thing is - there is only one international link and that's closely monitored, so how can internet bring democracy in Iraq? It can't even bring communication (or emails from abroad) to Iraq. So, I think from what I have read and since I am working on my master thesis on Internet's impact on democratization of political systems (namely 6 case studies - Cuba, CHina, Mexico, Serbia, Estonia, Japan) that your point is clearly weak. Internet in countries with poor population, low literacy and education and old infrastructure is more of help to government than dissent. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- information sharing, not barring -* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:17:12 -0500 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: [netz] Netizens and Public Health (was free spech) >Luis wrote, >Hello Howard: I want to thank you for your words of friendship and I >also offer >you my hand and I apologize for any harsh words I said to you.I sincerely hope >this is the start of a good friendship and association between us through the >list. I work as a Library Assistant at Columbia University at the Health >Sciences Library where I met Jay years ago. We have some things in common. I was the network architect for the Library of Congress between 1976 and 1980, and have been involved in health sciences research going back to high school. Some of my current efforts involve developing expert systems for medicine. It might be worth people becoming familiar with something I consider a great and becoming-greater success of Netizenship. For those not aware of it, take a glance at www.promed.org, a site/mailing list (or series of them) sometimes jokingly called the "CNN of Public Health." It is a superb worldwide Internet system, covering 140+ countries when last I looked, where information is shared about disease outbreaks (human, animal and plant), certain changes to well-known diseases, etc. The international collaboration on it is often the first early warning of a potential widespread disease. Anyone can subscribe to read the list, although posting to the list is moderated so that post come only from recognized experts. You'll see postings by working physicians and scientists, by governmental public health organizations, and reports from the news media. The last is typically with expert commentary and groups several seemingly unrelated news reports together to help reveal patterns that otherwise might not be obvious. I, at least, think of it as a definite Netizen product, very decentralized, collaborative, and informative. It's totally apolitical -- if, for example, an unknown epidemic broke out in Iraq and Iraqi physicians asked for information on this list, I haven't the slightest doubt that their colleagues worldwide would help if possible. I'd like to think that the (often very good) public health people in Iraq, Cuba, and elsewhere would be able to offer their expertise to US counterparts. Without government interference, I think it's very likely that would happen. True, it's not directly devoted to political matters, but I regard public health as one of the fundamental responsibilities of government -- it's a subset of the common defense. Public health (which has been perverted, as in Soviet political/psychiatric hospitalization, the US Tuskegee Experiment, etc.) is interesting in that it is one of those things that, like the military, does not lend itself to being completely voluntary, and indeed may need to be coercive (as in enforcing quarantines). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:28:18 -0500 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] Netizens and Public Health (was free spech) Hello Howard: I am familiar with the Library of Congress and I'm glad to learn that you were its network architect. It must have been quite a challenging task especially during those early years you mention. I will definitely check out www.promed.org the CNN of Public Health, it must be quite a website, which I was not familiar with. You're absolutely right about contributions to public health by experts from countries like Cuba (my native land) and Iraq. As one who has experienced life under totalitarianism I fully realize what you mean by the "perversion of psychiatry" under the Soviets and the equally infamous Tuskegee, Alabama experiment(s) during the 30's and perhaps the 40's. Tuskegee must have been quite an experimental area, that's also where the famous Tuskegee Air Force Squadron trained. I also agree with you that governments interference often restricts the free exchange of information. I hope netizens has made and will help make a difference in these areas, by encouraging and thus helping to increase the flow of information between people in different countries. I have to go now, take care and thank you for the info. Lou "Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote: > >Luis wrote, > > >Hello Howard: I want to thank you for your words of friendship and I > >also offer > >you my hand and I apologize for any harsh words I said to you.I sincerely hope > >this is the start of a good friendship and association between us through the > >list. I work as a Library Assistant at Columbia University at the Health > >Sciences Library where I met Jay years ago. > > We have some things in common. I was the network architect for the > Library of Congress between 1976 and 1980, and have been involved in > health sciences research going back to high school. Some of my > current efforts involve developing expert systems for medicine. > > It might be worth people becoming familiar with something I consider > a great and becoming-greater success of Netizenship. > > For those not aware of it, take a glance at www.promed.org, a > site/mailing list (or series of them) sometimes jokingly called the > "CNN of Public Health." It is a superb worldwide Internet system, > covering 140+ countries when last I looked, where information is > shared about disease outbreaks (human, animal and plant), certain > changes to well-known diseases, etc. The international collaboration > on it is often the first early warning of a potential widespread > disease. Anyone can subscribe to read the list, although posting to > the list is moderated so that post come only from recognized experts. > > You'll see postings by working physicians and scientists, by > governmental public health organizations, and reports from the news > media. The last is typically with expert commentary and groups > several seemingly unrelated news reports together to help reveal > patterns that otherwise might not be obvious. > > I, at least, think of it as a definite Netizen product, very > decentralized, collaborative, and informative. It's totally > apolitical -- if, for example, an unknown epidemic broke out in Iraq > and Iraqi physicians asked for information on this list, I haven't > the slightest doubt that their colleagues worldwide would help if > possible. I'd like to think that the (often very good) public health > people in Iraq, Cuba, and elsewhere would be able to offer their > expertise to US counterparts. Without government interference, I > think it's very likely that would happen. > > True, it's not directly devoted to political matters, but I regard > public health as one of the fundamental responsibilities of > government -- it's a subset of the common defense. Public health > (which has been perverted, as in Soviet political/psychiatric > hospitalization, the US Tuskegee Experiment, etc.) is interesting in > that it is one of those things that, like the military, does not lend > itself to being completely voluntary, and indeed may need to be > coercive (as in enforcing quarantines). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:29:51 -0500 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re: [netz] Netizens and Public Health (was free spech) >Hello Howard: I am familiar with the Library of Congress and I'm >glad to learn that >you were its network architect. It must have been quite a challenging task >especially during those early years you mention. >I will definitely check out www.promed.org the CNN of Public Health, >it must be >quite a website, which I was not familiar with. You're absolutely right about >contributions to public health by experts from countries like Cuba >(my native land) >and Iraq. As one who has experienced life under totalitarianism I >fully realize >what you mean by the "perversion of psychiatry" under the Soviets >and the equally >infamous Tuskegee, Alabama experiment(s) during the 30's and perhaps the 40's. >Tuskegee must have been quite an experimental area, that's also >where the famous >Tuskegee Air Force Squadron trained. In the small world department, my ex-wife's great-uncle, BG Noel Parrish, became the chief trainer of the Tuskegee Airmen. It was never my honor to meet him, but, from people that knew him, he was incredibly respected by people both black and white. Very much known as a military disciplinarian -- but also known as absolutely fair, and regarded as someone who gave the Airmen the skill both to succeed and come back alive. What has he to do with Netizens? Apparently, someone that judged people with no respect to color -- something really hard to do on the net. I briefly visited Cuba in the late fifties, still under Batista. Relatives owned a hotel and restaurant, and, after Castro arrived, had everything confiscated. It is funny that I've had to explain this visit on security forms, given I was about 8 years old and Castro was still in the mountains. *sigh* I still remember eating the fresh plaintain chips sold by the street vendors. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:09:18 +0100 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re[2]: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...) HCB> But I am an American. You are a European. The Internet is neither and HCB> both. What are the bases of governance? I don't exactly understand what you mean by 'bases of governance', but I guess there is one phrase for it: 'cooperative nature of the internet'. Everybody could govern his/her own server, web pages etc. thus creating (whatever small) community of people who visit those web pages. So, basically everyone means something on internet individually. And together there is sense of community. You don't have to know all the people (and in fact you'll never do), but there is some kind of shared community sense for sure. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- just stop for a moment and listen to chillout... -* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:57:38 -0500 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re[2]: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...) >HCB> But I am an American. You are a European. The Internet is neither and >HCB> both. What are the bases of governance? > >I don't exactly understand what you mean by 'bases of governance', Let me clarify. There is no common basis of government; it is decentralized. Problems occur in many directions. Take, for example, Germany or France, which have legislation forbidding Nazi information (I'm generalizing for brevity) to be on websites. Consider the spectrum of servers with this information: 1. Server physically in Germany and operated by a German citizen. 2. Server physically in Korea and operated by a French citizen resident in France. 3. Server in the US and operated by a German citizen in the UK. 4. Not a specific dedicated server, but materials questionable by French law available on Yahoo, and the French goverment demanding either Yahoo make it unavailable in France or take it off completely. There is, incidentally, no technically reliable way to know the physical location of a web client. >but >I guess there is one phrase for it: 'cooperative nature of the >internet'. Everybody could govern his/her own server, web pages etc. >thus creating (whatever small) community of people who visit those web >pages. Each one of the examples I cite above triggered a case of government intervention. > >So, basically everyone means something on internet individually. And >together there is sense of community. You don't have to know all the >people (and in fact you'll never do), but there is some kind of >shared community sense for sure. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:36:53 -0500 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] Netizens and Public Health (was free spech) Hello Howard: I have the hightest regard for the Tuskegee Squadron and their trainers. As far as I know they were superb fighter pilots, many of them aces, who according to reports and a recent film, never lost a bomber (mostly B-17's) and also some B-24's they escorted, the pilots and aircraft they lost to the intercepting german fighter aircraft were their own, which proves to me their dedication, skills and sacrifice. I think our homage to them has something to do with the spirit of netizens because our list, I think is composed of well meaning human beings and every once in a while I think we can take a small break from the mission and technicalities and enjoy a good and constructive chat. I think the brave Tuskegee chaps deserve it. I am glad you visited Cuba and enjoyed the food, I hope my fellow cubans are able to have better and affordable access to the net and I'd like to see many of them join our list and become netizens. Take care, Lou D. "Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote: > >Hello Howard: I am familiar with the Library of Congress and I'm > >glad to learn that > >you were its network architect. It must have been quite a challenging task > >especially during those early years you mention. > >I will definitely check out www.promed.org the CNN of Public Health, > >it must be > >quite a website, which I was not familiar with. You're absolutely right about > >contributions to public health by experts from countries like Cuba > >(my native land) > >and Iraq. As one who has experienced life under totalitarianism I > >fully realize > >what you mean by the "perversion of psychiatry" under the Soviets > >and the equally > >infamous Tuskegee, Alabama experiment(s) during the 30's and perhaps the 40's. > >Tuskegee must have been quite an experimental area, that's also > >where the famous > >Tuskegee Air Force Squadron trained. > > In the small world department, my ex-wife's great-uncle, BG Noel > Parrish, became the chief trainer of the Tuskegee Airmen. It was > never my honor to meet him, but, from people that knew him, he was > incredibly respected by people both black and white. Very much known > as a military disciplinarian -- but also known as absolutely fair, > and regarded as someone who gave the Airmen the skill both to succeed > and come back alive. > > What has he to do with Netizens? Apparently, someone that judged > people with no respect to color -- something really hard to do on the > net. > > I briefly visited Cuba in the late fifties, still under Batista. > Relatives owned a hotel and restaurant, and, after Castro arrived, > had everything confiscated. It is funny that I've had to explain this > visit on security forms, given I was about 8 years old and Castro was > still in the mountains. *sigh* I still remember eating the fresh > plaintain chips sold by the street vendors. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 05:55:27 EST From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com Subject: Re: [netz] Internet in Iraq: Better than Bombs - --part1_143.d3ae28f.2bad9b1f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/20/03 4:02:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, dusoft@staznosti.sk writes: > You should really read the paper by these two people. > > Boas, Taylor C. a Kalathil, Shanthi: The Internet and State Control in > Authoritarian Regimes: China, Cuba, and the Counterrevolution > (Information Revolution and World Politics Project - Global Policy > Program, Number 21, July 2001), http://www.ceip.org > http://www.ceip.org/files/Publications/wp21.asp > Thanks. Larry - --part1_143.d3ae28f.2bad9b1f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/20/03 4:02:12 PM Eastern Standard= Time, dusoft@staznosti.sk writes:

You should really read the pape= r by these two people.

Boas, Taylor C. a Kalathil, Shanthi: The Internet and State Control in
Authoritarian Regimes: China, Cuba, and the Counterrevolution
(Information Revolution and World Politics Project - Global Policy
Program, Number 21, July 2001), http://www.ceip.org
http://www.ceip.org/files/Publications/wp21.asp


Thanks.

Larry - --part1_143.d3ae28f.2bad9b1f_boundary-- ------------------------------ End of Netizens-Digest V1 #438 ******************************