Netizens-Digest Wednesday, March 19 2003 Volume 01 : Number 436 Netizens Association Discussion List Digest In this issue: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...) [netz] Re: Views and Re: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...) [netz] PLEASE KEEP THE LIST ALIVE Re: [netz] PLEASE KEEP THE LIST ALIVE [netz] Internet in Iraq: Better than Bombs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:08:42 EST From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY - --part1_1db.54eef5d.2ba7cb9a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/17/03 1:44:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, hcb@gettcomm.com writes: > If the list becomes a general place to vent non-network-related > political concerns, I will leave it. I can't speak to others. > > I joined this list, at Ronda's invitation, being concerned with > Internet governance, the fiascoes at ICANN and with other aspects of > DNS and intellectual property. If these issues are not solved, then > the use of the list to improve network-enabled communication is > irrelevant and I'll look for another venue. > Hey! We really don't want this to happen. I really don't think you want Howard to leave. I don't. Look, we don't want to alienate anyone here, especially the technical people. We should be here trying to find solutions, not to vent. Please... Let us keep this a sacred place. I came here for professional reasons. I truly wanted to understand the political dynamics of the Internet as it develops. This is a truly wondrous age. For the sake of research (and Michael was about research) we really must keep the dialog professional which means professional. Let us avoid desultory political exposition or diatribe. What can we learn from these events that inspire passion and rage? What structure can we abstract from classes of similar events that can aid us in devising an internetwork that can enhance the quality of our lives and for citizens of the world? People come here worldwide expecting professional dialog. I believe I have used the word professional, it is now five times. We're all intelligent here. Let's take that rage and channel it into constructive endeavor. Whatdaya say? Ronda has been very professional. I must say that I am very pleased and honored that she has invited me here. She was correct in using appropriate language to suggest that those who are interested in discussing the war create another place to conduct that sort of discourse. There is nothing wrong with it. It just does not belong here. Larry - --part1_1db.54eef5d.2ba7cb9a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/17/03 1:44:19 PM Eastern Standard= Time, hcb@gettcomm.com writes:

If the list becomes a general p= lace to vent non-network-related
political concerns, I will leave it.  I can't speak to others.

I joined this list, at Ronda's invitation, being concerned with
Internet governance, the fiascoes at ICANN and with other aspects of
DNS and intellectual property. If these issues are not solved, then
the use of the list to improve network-enabled communication is
irrelevant and I'll look for another venue.


Hey!  We really don't want this to happen.  I really don't think y= ou want Howard to leave.  I don't.

Look, we don't want to alienate anyone here, especially the technical people= .  We should be here trying to find solutions, not to vent.  Pleas= e...  Let us keep this a sacred place.  I came here for profession= al reasons.  I truly wanted to understand the political dynamics of the= Internet as it develops.  This is a truly wondrous age.  For the=20= sake of research (and Michael was about research) we really must keep the di= alog professional which means professional. 

Let us avoid desultory political exposition or diatribe. 

What can we learn from these events that inspire passion and rage?  Wha= t structure can we abstract from classes of similar events that can aid us i= n devising an internetwork that can enhance the quality of our lives and for= citizens of the world?

People come here worldwide expecting professional dialog.  I believe I=20= have used the word professional, it is now five times.

We're all intelligent here.  Let's take that rage and channel it into c= onstructive endeavor.  Whatdaya say?

Ronda has been very professional.  I must say that I am very pleased an= d honored that she has invited me here.  She was correct in using appro= priate language to suggest that those who are interested in discussing the w= ar create another place to conduct that sort of discourse.  There is no= thing wrong with it.  It just does not belong here.

Larry - --part1_1db.54eef5d.2ba7cb9a_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:36:02 -0500 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re: [netz] NETIZENS ON WAR AND DEMOCRACY Thanks, Larry, Sometimes someone else expresses my position even better than I did, and this is one of those times. I really want to discuss the enabling of communications. I am, however, incredibly tired in getting off into the agendas of -- I don't have the correct term, so substitute whatever you want -- "progressive activists." I'd be equally tired of dealing with the agenda of neo-Nazis, of Enron executives, of anything you like. Martin Luther King dreamed of a time when one would be judged by the color of one's character, not the color of his skin. The Internet is the closest we have come to that. The continuing viability of the Internet itself, as well as possibly undreamed-of empowerment of people, depends on that viability. There are many venues to talk about "progressive" positions. I use that adjective because most of the ideology presented here is in that direction -- not many Jerry Falwells around (sounds of thanksgiving). There are highly technical venues for talking about the innards of DNS and, indeed, who governs the root. There are very few venues to discuss the interaction of network with the generic process of enabling citizenship. Let us try to keep this list focused on the unique contributions it can make there, and let us make it a place where, to be blunt, more technical people would feel welcome. It's a fairly basic characteristic of technical people to focus on finding solutions, rather than bewail how they are not empowered, or how eeeevil the Conspiracies are. :-) we know that the darkest motives ascribed to Bush and Cheney come nowhere near the havoc that Dilbert-style pointy-haired bosses can wreak. >n a message dated 3/17/03 1:44:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, >hcb@gettcomm.com writes: > >>If the list becomes a general place to vent non-network-related >>political concerns, I will leave it. I can't speak to others. >> >>I joined this list, at Ronda's invitation, being concerned with >>Internet governance, the fiascoes at ICANN and with other aspects of >>DNS and intellectual property. If these issues are not solved, then >>the use of the list to improve network-enabled communication is >>irrelevant and I'll look for another venue. >> > > >Hey! We really don't want this to happen. I really don't think you >want Howard to leave. I don't. > >Look, we don't want to alienate anyone here, especially the >technical people. We should be here trying to find solutions, not >to vent. Please... Let us keep this a sacred place. I came here >for professional reasons. I truly wanted to understand the >political dynamics of the Internet as it develops. This is a truly >wondrous age. For the sake of research (and Michael was about >research) we really must keep the dialog professional which means >professional. > >Let us avoid desultory political exposition or diatribe. > >What can we learn from these events that inspire passion and rage? >What structure can we abstract from classes of similar events that >can aid us in devising an internetwork that can enhance the quality >of our lives and for citizens of the world? > >People come here worldwide expecting professional dialog. I believe >I have used the word professional, it is now five times. > >We're all intelligent here. Let's take that rage and channel it >into constructive endeavor. Whatdaya say? > >Ronda has been very professional. I must say that I am very pleased >and honored that she has invited me here. She was correct in using >appropriate language to suggest that those who are interested in >discussing the war create another place to conduct that sort of >discourse. There is nothing wrong with it. It just does not belong >here. > >Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 23:57:22 +0100 From: Dan Duris Subject: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...) HCB> In my opinion, it should be equally protected that that this person HCB> be able to ELECTRONICALLY (in the context of Netizens) put out this HCB> message, and for an odious racist to spew his filth. It would be HCB> wrong, for example, to shut down a website associated with either. ... HCB> But I still wouldn't shut down his website. This is American view of free speech. In Europe it is community that decides what's appropriate and what's out of limits. Of course, I am not against displaying fascist webpages, but guidance is needed for children and youth while working with net. And it should be parental guidance preferably. BTW Howard - Netiquette: You should really delete old replies below your emails... PS Luis - Netiquette: Don't use CAPS for it looks as shouting. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- three saints: looser & lamer & hacker -* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:48:30 -0500 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: [netz] Re: Views and Dan Duris wrote, identifying what I think is an excellent area of Netizens discussion, >HCB> In my opinion, it should be equally protected that that this person >HCB> be able to ELECTRONICALLY (in the context of Netizens) put out this >HCB> message, and for an odious racist to spew his filth. It would be >HCB> wrong, for example, to shut down a website associated with either. >... >HCB> But I still wouldn't shut down his website. > >This is American view of free speech. In Europe it is community that >decides what's appropriate and what's out of limits. Of course, I am >not against displaying fascist webpages, but guidance is needed for >children and youth while working with net. And it should be parental >guidance preferably. I'd say the position in the US is somewhere in the middle. There is a US faction that wants prior restraint on content, perhaps on "community standards." In a country as large and diverse as the US, however, this becomes a problem -- prosecutors routinely would move the trial venue for an obscenity case from, say, New York City -- where the material wouldn't raise a community eyebrow -- to a rural religious community, which was opposed to almost anything. I'm in the category of feeling there should be "warning labels", as indeed there are in television, that can be enforced (including electronically) by parents. As opposed to some colleagues, I would be open to considerable "warning information" being available, much as I agree there should be controls on admission of children to pornography stores into which an adult should be free to go. But the final authority is parental, with the caveat that the Net as a whole cannot and should not be restricted to that which is fully child-safe. I don't have conventional children (just three much-loved cats). I know, however, that I might be thoroughly upset to have human children reading some propaganda others might be delighted to have them read, and vice versa. (side note: Clifford, my really close cat friend of almost 18 years, who died last summer, only paid attention to two things on television: nature shows involving dogs/wolves/coyotes/etc. -- not cats -- and Bill Clinton speeches. He'd sit and stare at the television set through a 90 minute speech. It's beyond the mind of man. The next generation does like to watch the Animal Channel on television. I don't know if it will convince some international readers that the US has finally gone over the edge, but there is a commercial proposal for new cable TV programming called the "Cat Channel" -- not content about cats for people, but for cats to watch. I have _very_ conflicted feelings about this. :-) Does it make my cats Netizens because they emphatically walk on the keyboard, sending some sort of message, while I am posting? From a technical standpoint, there have been many idiotic measures proposed for "prior protection." Simply speaking, they don't work well if at all, and they also miss one of the most fundamental principles of computer and network security: putting in every protection needed doesn't relieve the administrator of creating an audit trail and verifying that what eventually was accessed was appropriate. Now, this does not necessarily mean "checking up" on what adults do by some outside authority. It may mean that a corporate or governmental activity can monitor use (and potential security violations) of their computing resources, or it may mean that parents check their childrens' actual access. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:40:41 -0500 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: Re: [netz] Free speech (was NETIZENS...) Dan : Thank you for the tip, from now on I'll use netiquette when I write. I also want to thank those of you who defend freedom of speech, writing, etc. I wrote to Jay and Ronda saying that I was "out my league" when I posted my personal views on the war and democracy, when I actually should have written how the war and democracy affect netizens, the net,.communications, etc. I didn't mean to offend anyone or become controversial and I apologize for any words I used out of anger. I am a simple person, a worker,not familiar with many of the terms you use. I have learned to use a computer, but I'm still a great distance away from becoming fully skilled in it. I have learned a good deal from my friends the Haubens, whom I love and respect very much. One of my goals is to become a good and effective netizen and I would appreciate very much any help any of you can give me in becoming one. Take care, Luis de Quesada Dan Duris wrote: > HCB> In my opinion, it should be equally protected that that this person > HCB> be able to ELECTRONICALLY (in the context of Netizens) put out this > HCB> message, and for an odious racist to spew his filth. It would be > HCB> wrong, for example, to shut down a website associated with either. > ... > HCB> But I still wouldn't shut down his website. > > This is American view of free speech. In Europe it is community that > decides what's appropriate and what's out of limits. Of course, I am > not against displaying fascist webpages, but guidance is needed for > children and youth while working with net. And it should be parental > guidance preferably. > > BTW Howard - Netiquette: You should really delete old replies below > your emails... > > PS Luis - Netiquette: Don't use CAPS for it looks as shouting. > > dan > -------------------------- > email: dusoft@staznosti.sk > ICQ: 17932727 > > *- three saints: looser & lamer & hacker -* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:55:41 -0500 From: Luis De Quesada Subject: [netz] PLEASE KEEP THE LIST ALIVE Hello: During these difficult days I would like to suggest that all of you with things to contribute to the list, do so, to keep the list alive. I've been reading the list for a long time and your contributions are enlightening and educational. Thank you, Luis de Quesada ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:00:02 EST From: AGENTKUENSTLER@aol.com Subject: Re: [netz] PLEASE KEEP THE LIST ALIVE - --part1_12e.25f7b7e1.2baa88b2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/19/03 10:40:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes: > Hello: During these difficult days I would like to suggest that all of > you with things to contribute to the list, do so, to keep the list > alive. I've been reading the list for a long time and your contributions > are enlightening and educational. > Thank you, > Luis de Quesada > Luis, I truly believe that it is not possible for the list to die. There are way too many political issues to resolve regarding the development and governance of the Internet. As you are well aware, Michael and Ronda have introduced and articulated deftly many of these issues. Personally, as I am looking to pursue in some way, some fair level of exploitation of the Internet to reach consumers, I need to understand all sides of this development and governance. As long as I'm still invited, I'd like to stay. By the way, I pray that everyone remains safe. Larry - --part1_12e.25f7b7e1.2baa88b2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/19/03 10:40:55 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, lgd1@columbia.edu writes:

Hello: During these difficult d= ays I would like to suggest that all of
you with things to contribute to the list, do so, to keep the list
alive. I've been reading the list for a long time and your contributions
are enlightening and educational.
Thank you,
Luis de Quesada


Luis, I truly believe that it is not possible for the list to die.  The= re are way too many political issues to resolve regarding the development an= d governance of the Internet.  As you are well aware, Michael and Ronda= have introduced and articulated deftly many of these issues.  Personal= ly, as I am looking to pursue in some way, some fair level of exploitation o= f the Internet to reach consumers, I need to understand all sides of this de= velopment and governance. 

As long as I'm still invited, I'd like to stay. 

By the way, I pray that everyone remains safe.

Larry - --part1_12e.25f7b7e1.2baa88b2_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:21:38 -0500 (EST) From: jrh@ais.org (Jay Hauben) Subject: [netz] Internet in Iraq: Better than Bombs Hi, I thought this article about the Internet in Iraq from Radio Netherlands would interest readers of this list. My heart goes out to all the Iraqi people and to those military personnel whose lives will be shattered because the military of the US and its allies have been thrown against Iraq. Those who want democracy anywhere might help that process by helping spread the Internet to those places. Bombs and invasions from my point of view can not spread democracy. Take care. Jay - ------------- Radio Netherlands 14 March 2003 This is the weekly newsletter from Media Network at Radio Netherlands. http://www.rnw.nl/realradio/features/html/iraq-internet.html The Iraqi Internet by Andy Sennitt Until 1999, ordinary Iraqis did not have access to the Internet. That was not entirely the fault of the Iraqi government. UN-imposed trade sanctions made it impossible to import the necessary technical equipment. Now the government allows individuals to access the Net, albeit only via its own service provider (the State Company for Internet Services) which trades as uruklink.net. Only in quasi-autonomous Iraqi Kurdistan is the Web largely free of official censorship. The Iraqi government sees the Internet as a form of getting information from abroad, and as a source of income through charging relatively high fees to use the Internet. Even so it's cheaper to send an e-mail than make a phone call in Iraq. Internet cafes The first state-run Internet cafe opened in July 2000, and there were around 60 by the start of 2003. Those who can afford it are allowed to have Internet connections at home. The cost is 50,000 Iraqi dinars (about US$25) for three months, with an additional charge for each e-mail message. A locally built computer costs around US$600. That's beyond the means of most ordinary Iraqis, who prefer to use the Internet cafes where typically they can surf the net for 500 Dinars (about 25 US cents) per session. But at least some Iraqis now have direct access to information from outside the country, though there's no doubt that the authorities closely monitor their online activity. There's a degree of official censorship too. Iraqis cannot access Web sites whose contents are considered "contradictory to Islamic law." Any Iraqi clicking on a link to a site that contains sexual or pornographic material is receives an "Access Denied" message. Also banned are the sites of Iraqi opposition groups, and some US government sites. Iraqis are not allowed to open E-mail accounts with commercial providers outside Iraq, such as Hotmail and Yahoo! Unexplained disruptions to service still occur, probably more for political than technical reasons. Iraqi Web sites T here are relatively few Web sites produced inside Iraq for the outside world, all of them by the Iraqi government and institutions. They are linked from the Home Page of Uruklink. Ironically, one of the sites is for the Iraq Tourism Board. Note from the screen shot below that they have pages in 'Dutche' (sic) which in fact turns out to be German. The Web site of the Iraqi News Agency has a substantial section in English, though when we checked the latest headlines were three days old, suggesting that stories have to go through a rigorous checking procedure before they're published. The Iraq Satellite Channel affair The Iraqi Internet infrastructure has been set up with scant attention to efficiency and security. This is amply demonstrated by what happened to the Web site of the Iraq Satellite Channel, Iraq's international TV service. On 18 February 2003, a routine check by Media Network showed that the site appeared to have been hacked. During 2002, we had been able to watch the channel in streaming video at www.iraqtv.ws. But we were surprised to find that the content had been replaced by a Christian fundamentalist message (see screenshot on right). Media Network's Lou Josephs and Sheila Lennon of the Providence Journal managed to track down the person responsible, American James Poole. It turns out that he had discovered the domain registration had expired, and a quick piece of thinking allowed him to reregister it. Quick Thinking "I don't know if they let it lapse or just never got it up off the ground," said Poole. "I was scanning their sites looking for some weakness or vulnerability, and discovered that they had a link to their satellite service that was not registered at that point, so I registered the link and put up my own site. I registered the site on Sunday, Feb 16 and the fact that my link is still imbedded on the site tells me that someone over there is helping me, either out of fear or agreement. I have received one threat by E-mail but many positive messages of encouragement, even one in French and one short letter of appreciation from an Arabic sounding name." Poole was able to take advantage of the fact that the State Company for Internet Services (SCIS), uses just two foreign companies to handle nearly all its Internet access. One is American (Atlanta International Teleport of Douglasville, Ga.), and the other is British (SMS Internet of Rugby, Warwickshire). This arrangement came about when SCIS approached ARABSAT to obtain Internet access. ARABSAT contracts its Internet service from various commercial companies, which happen to include AIT and SMS. In theory, the US and Britain could shut down Iraq's internet access if they wanted to, simply by ordering AIT and SMS to switch off the connection. Opposition Sites Most Iraqi-related sites operating in the west are either independent or run by opposition groups supporting the goal of regime change in Iraq. Some of them have suffered denial of service attacks and other inconveniences. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has not ruled out the possibility that some of the denial of service attacks are the work of pro-Baghdad hackers. But this seems unlikely as the general level of Internet expertise in Iraq remains low. A more likely scenario is that US citizens, unable to grasp the complexities of Iraqi politics, were behind most of the attacks. It is, of course, politically expedient for the Bush administration to claim that cyber attacks by Iraq, Al Qaeda and other 'undesirable' elements, are a threat to US security. At the same time, the FBI has warned US hackers to desist from "patriotic hacking", as it is a crime and could even backfire. Cyberwar In January, the US Defense Department began sending thousands of e-mail messages to Leaders of the Iraqi military, warning them that that they would sustain heavy losses unless they defied Saddam Hussein. This is very much the same message as the psyop radio broadcasts. It's believed that the 193rd Special Operations Wing of the Pennsylvania Air National Guard, which operates Information Radio, and the CIA were involved in the e-mail campaign. They used the services of Iraqi defectors to contact former colleagues and urge them to cooperate with US forces. These are extracts from some of the messages: "If you provide information on weapons of mass destruction or you take steps to hamper their use, we will do what is necessary to protect you and protect your families. Failing to do that will lead to grave personal consequences." "If you take part in the use of these ugly weapons, you'll be regarded as war criminals. If you can make these weapons ineffective, then do it. If you can identify the position of weapons of mass destruction by light signals, then do it. If all this is not possible, then at least refuse to take part in any activity or follow orders to use weapons of mass destruction." "Iraqi chemical, biological and nuclear weapons violate Iraq's commitment to agreements and United Nations resolutions. Iraq has been isolated because of this behaviour. The United States and its allies want the Iraqi people to be liberated from Saddam's injustice and for Iraq to become a respected member of the international community. Iraq's future depends on you." It's not clear if any of the messages reached their intended recipients, as all Internet traffic reaching Iraq is monitored and is filtered through uruklink.net. NB: Radio Netherlands is not responsible for the content of external Web sites.© 2003 Send us an e-mail ------------------------------ End of Netizens-Digest V1 #436 ******************************