Netizens-Digest Sunday, February 16 2003 Volume 01 : Number 414 Netizens Association Discussion List Digest In this issue: Re: [netz] TELEPOLIS: Massive Anti-War Protest in New York Cit... (fwd) [netz] Differing views and the Netizens list: Was "TELELPOLIS"... Re: [netz] Netizens and the Feb 15, 2003 demonstration in NYC [netz] demonstration [netz] internet in totalitarian states - naivety or dumbness [netz] Communication/lack thereof of interesting factoid ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:53:37 -0500 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: Re: [netz] TELEPOLIS: Massive Anti-War Protest in New York Cit... (fwd) At 11:30 AM -0500 2/16/03, Ronda Hauben wrote: >Here is an article I wrote for Telepolis about yesterday's demonstration >in New York City. The sentiment of people supporting each other around >the world for increased cmmunication and collaboration rather than >war and violence is one of the promises that the Internet and the >Netizens represent for the world. > [Quote of article containing not one word about the Internet snipped] I joined this list with the intention of learning and encouraging communications among people, using Internet media. I did not specify a particular ideological position for those people. Indeed, I'm in favor of hate material coming out from under its rocks and being exposed to the sunshine of free discourse. I welcome dialogue between people of widely varying ideological positions. Yet Ronda's last two postings have been devoted to descriptions of demonstrations, with no Internet content. Is this the trend to be expected? I personally haven't made up my mind about dealing militarily with Iraq, but I'll rely on what hard data I can collect - -- frequently over the net -- than mass demonstrations. Let us assume, hypothetically, that I was in favor, in the interest of what I considered to be world peace, that intense bombing of Iraqi leadership and military targets were warranted. Would that opinion even be allowed on this list, or is it a requirement for a Netizen to be politically correct by some standard of PC? Howard Berkowitz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 17:25:30 -0500 (EST) From: Ronda Hauben Subject: [netz] Differing views and the Netizens list: Was "TELELPOLIS"... I appreciate Howard's comments on this issue and feel it is an important one for the Netizens list to take up. On Sun, 16 Feb 2003, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: > At 11:30 AM -0500 2/16/03, Ronda Hauben wrote: > >Here is an article I wrote for Telepolis about yesterday's demonstration > >in New York City. The sentiment of people supporting each other around > >the world for increased cmmunication and collaboration rather than > >war and violence is one of the promises that the Internet and the > >Netizens represent for the world. > > > > [Quote of article containing not one word about the Internet snipped] > > I joined this list with the intention of learning and encouraging > communications among people, using Internet media. I did not specify > a particular ideological position for those people. The earlier article I sent to the list included a leaflet handed out to those at the rally about the connection of netizens and the Internet and what is happening now with regard to the US govt and the ability of people to discuss and disagree with the pro war policy the U.S. government has adopted. I welcome the discussion of these issues online and off line and feel that the Internet has made it possible for people to have substantial discussion over their disagreements and through this process to sort out how to resolve these disagreements. The last thing I want is the Internet to be part of support for the particular ideolgoical positions of certain people. The amazing thing about the size and global reach of the demonstrations yesterday was that they were unprecedented and that they were made possible by the communication made possible by the Internet. I didn't take that up in my article. However, my article was written because a German online magazine which has interesting articles in both German and English, indicated that it would be ok to write an article about the demonstration in NYC for the magazine. I was surprised when I asked people at the demonstration what they would want to say for an article for a German magazine, that they indicated how they appreciated the German government and people's support for peace, and opposition to war. Yet what is reported in the US press and other presses is that the American people are hostile to Germany because of its opposition to the war. Also I met someone from Germany who indicated that he was quite surprised to see the nature of the police activity in blocking demonstrators to get to an "officially sanctioned" rally. This needs to especially be viewed in connection with the fact that there were millions of people protesting at marches allowed in cities around the world. And yet here in NYC, protesters were not allowed to march, and furthermore, they were even prevented from getting to the rally they were being allowed to have. Also this allows the US to portray the anti-war sentiment in the US as minimal. I have met people from Germany who can't understand how there can be any opposition to a war against Iraq in the U.S. if Bush is speaking so forcefully against such a war. Probably the important aspect here is that you agree about the importance of communication and it is good you are on this mailing list, and that you post your responses, including this one, to the posts on this mailing list. It would help if more people on the list found the time and space to contribute to it as well. The online world welcomes differences. In the leaflet we gave out at the demonstration and the slogan on the sign we brought we wrote "Communication Not Annihilation, No War on Iraq, Netizens Unite" This doesn't say that everyone who appreciates netizens has to agree, but it does propose that the principle of communication is a principle that we will agree on. I posted this on a mailing list. Someone asked how much Internet use is there in Iraq? This is a good question and would be a good starting point to try to determine alternative means of trying to sort out what would be helpful with regard to supporting the people in Iraq to have more democracy. A student I know from Central Asia who is in the US now said that he didn't understand why the US didn't encourage all Iraqi's to be able to have access to the Internet instead of threatening to bomb them. But not only is the US government threatening to massive bombing (and already doing some bombing in Iraq), it is also severely erosing the constitutional rights of the people in the US at a time when it is exactly these constitutional rights that are so important not only for the further development of technology like the Internet, but also for the realization of a better means of solving the problems of society which the Internet and the netizen make possible. So these are some of the challenges of our times. Not only did the people I spoke with at the demonstration express a desire to communicate with the German people, but also there is a serious discussion of the article I wrote on Telepolis and it seems that there is a sense that there are lessons from the rise of fascism in Germany that can help us to understand the seriousness of the attack on the political rights of people in the U.S. like the activity of the police at the recent demonstration in NYC. > > Indeed, I'm in favor of hate material coming out from under its rocks > and being exposed to the sunshine of free discourse. I welcome > dialogue between people of widely varying ideological positions. I am too. And I am glad you state this so clearly. But some of this material is the fact that there was a significant demonstration in NYC yesterday and that many many people were prevented from getting to it. And that this would be covered up if it were not for the Internet and the collaboration it makes possible with people around the world. Whether or not you agree that one should protest a war against Iraq, I would hope you would agree that the right to protest and to disagree with the US government is the right of US citizens. People around the world see the US and NYC as the model for democracy and liberalness (in the good sense of supporting people's rights). Yet that was all trampled on yesterday by the NYC government activity and the directions the police had to barricade people and prevent them from being able to get to the rally. > > Yet Ronda's last two postings have been devoted to descriptions of > demonstrations, with no Internet content. Is this the trend to be > expected? I personally haven't made up my mind about dealing > militarily with Iraq, but I'll rely on what hard data I can collect > -- frequently over the net -- than mass demonstrations. There was substantial Internet content in the posting last night, where I included the leaflet we gave out at the demonstration. We brought the concept of the Netizen and support for the Internet to the demonstration. If any one wants me to resend the leaflet I will be glad to do so. I would have appreciated discussion about it on the Netizens List. I do agree that I didn't include discussion of the Internet in the article I wrote for Telepolis, but I did do the article because of the online magazine the Intenret makes possible, and there is a serious online discussion of it now (though the discussion is in German and i can only get an idea of it from machine translations that I am able to do because of the Internet.) Yet the collaboation to discuss the importance of democratic rights among people online is in fact some of what I feel is the wonder of the netizen and netizens and this is a precious time that this is being taken seriously. > > Let us assume, hypothetically, that I was in favor, in the interest > of what I considered to be world peace, that intense bombing of Iraqi > leadership and military targets were warranted. Would that opinion > even be allowed on this list, or is it a requirement for a Netizen to > be politically correct by some standard of PC? > That opinion would be welcome on this list. It is very important that there be a serious discussion of diverse opinions. The Voltaire principle which I found supported on Usenet in my research, was "I may disagree with what you say, but I will duel to the death for your right to say it" is in fact what I hold most dear about my experience on Usenet and the Internet. And the support by people for what may be an unpopular or minority opinions is crucial, whether one agrees with the opinion or not. That is what was violated yesterday by the NYC government and what the US government now seems to feel they have a free hand to abolish. That there could be marches around the world, but NOT in New York City and that people coming to an officially sanctioned demonstration were prevented from getting to it or to moving freely as part of it, this is a very serious turning point for both the continued development of the Internet and of democracy in America. The Internet needs open discussion and support for the diversity of opinions. Open architecture provided for the communication among networks that were different technically, administratively and politically. Those who oppose this diversity also oppose the Internet and its continued development. So yes unpopular opinions are welcome, and I hope the people on this list will welcome them and contribute to the discussion over them. We are all busy and sometimes one or the other of us can't answer, but hopefully someone else will accept the gift of diverse opinions. Please let me know if this clarifies at all. I am glad you spoke up and hope we can come to some understanding of the difference represented and the implications of that difference for the further development of the Internet and the netizens list. > Howard Berkowitz > With best wishes Ronda ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 23:50:19 +0100 From: Dan Duris Subject: Re: [netz] Netizens and the Feb 15, 2003 demonstration in NYC rpc> the Internet pioneers and users a reality. We don't want war in Iraq. We rpc> don't want war in North Korea or Iran. We don't want war against the rpc> Palestinians. We want to communicate with each other and collaborate I don't want war with Iraq either, but as you don't seem to get it, this is something inevitable and it's certainly good. I spent my childhood years during communism and don't want to experience it anymore. And I don't want Iraqis to experience that bastard dictator they have there either anymore. I understand pacifistic demonstrations since this is fine and it's the belief of the persons. But it seems very strange seeing other people who demonstrate for peaceful solution. KNOCK, KNOCK... WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? I have been on this planet and I read about that bastard Saddam killing innocent people living in his country, testing chemical and biological weapons on them. I have also read about killing Kurds (what about minority rights?) and prosecuting everyone against him (eventually killing all opposition leaders and his counsin, too). This is not about peaceful solutions anymore, Saddam have been shitting on everyone for past 10 years. This is the crime that history will remember and not the war, it's just last possible reaction to this dictator killing his own people. When Hitler came to power Chamberlain and Stalin even signed treaties with him and Chamberlain celebrated it when he came back to Britain telling waiting spectators "to go home and sleep peacefully in their beds". Nobody cared about Jews, Romas, homosexuals or even native inhabitants of countries under German-fascist military power, although this changed when Churchill got to power. And also this changed because (those war-pigs) Americans came to our defense. Europeans are sometimes too blind to see what's going on and thus I am proud to be a citizen of one of the countries in transition and not of "Old Europe". dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- this is cookie. good cookie, sweet cookie, email cookie. -* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 00:25:18 +0100 From: Dan Duris Subject: [netz] demonstration Of course I don't agree with limiting your right to demonstrate in any case. Just don't let them to take it from you. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- "shutdown windows, open the gates" vlad. s. -* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 00:19:57 +0100 From: Dan Duris Subject: [netz] internet in totalitarian states - naivety or dumbness >A student I know from Central Asia who is in the US now said >that he didn't understand why the US didn't encourage all Iraqi's >to be able to have access to the Internet instead of threatening >to bomb them. Either someone is clearly blind here or totally naive. Just see what is China doing with Internet or read more about internet in Cuba (it's not really internet, maybe a few networks inside the country) and you could know how internet in Iraq could look like. Do you really people believe that internet is going to change the world so much? I don't want to take you your beliefs (I have eventually had the same belief before), but now I am doing my master thesis on internet and its influence on democratization of poltiical systems and I have to tell you that fact is internet is helping countries on their way to democracy only in relatively democratic countries. It works for Estonia and Serbia, for Japan, too, but it clearly DOES NOT work for China. China officials handle internet very well in favour of their propaganda. Internet in Iraq? Just tell me how many phone lines they have. Or have you ever non-intentionally bumped to Iraqi domain? I haven't and of course that doesn't mean Iraqi servers doesn't exist. It's just that there is hardly any possibility for normal Iraqi citizen to get online. And I can tell you it's not so easy here in Slovakia either. Not because of technology itself, we have plenty of it, but because the costs. And dial-up (still the most widely used method) is pretty expensive here in comparison with other countries around us. And now we are supposed to be democratic country, so what about Iraq? Totalitarian state with access to internet? So, was that student really so naive or just flat dumb? Now, I don't really know what's better for him to be. Other thing is that peaceful solutions work in my opinion only in more-less democratic countries, just check the example of Gandhi. I even wrote about his satjagraha and non-violent approach, but from what I have found it's clearly visible that his approach would not work in totalitarian state. He would be imprisoned in a moment or two and then likely sentenced to death. dan - -------------------------- email: dusoft@staznosti.sk ICQ: 17932727 *- little brother says: "minimal state!" -* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:35:39 -0500 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: [netz] Communication/lack thereof of interesting factoid Thanks for the response, Ronda. I'm writing a longer response about Internet access in countries that may be restrictive about making communications widely available. But a stray personal observation may be of interest, and I can't say it's terribly complementary to the mass media. Some of you may remember that an American, Jack McGeorge, was nominated to the UN inspection task force, and the Washington Post (one of the more reputable papers in the US) "broke" the story that he was "involved in sadomasochistic activities" and was "unqualified." It spread to other news media. Jack happens to be a personal and professional friend. Indeed, he has been involved in consensual and alternate sexuality, and has been a national speaker on it. In other words, he's completely open about it and there is no danger of blackmail. According to the Washington Post's own ombudsman, in an editorial page column a week or two later, the Post had been sensationalizing his sexual preferences, and the issue of his qualifications came from one anonymous prior inspector who was not invited onto the team. This source objected that Jack had no advanced academic degree in a field such as microbiology, nuclear physics, chemical engineering, etc. Jack, indeed, does not. What he does have is about 30 years experience as a bomb/explosives safety technician -- the sort of person you want to check a pile of shells before the scientists get near it (he has a T-shirt with the legend on the back, "I am a bomb technician. If you see me running, try to keep up." In any event, he immediately offered his resignation to Blix at the UN, saying he didn't want to compromise the integrity of the mission. Blix refused it, and that was the last heard for a while. There were informal reports that Europeans, in particular, objected to bringing his personal life into the discussion. Incidentally, the US government remained neutral; the fuss was in the media. A few weeks ago, I looked at CNN on my monitor and did a doubletake to see Jack in the middle of the lead photograph. It turned out he was on the team that discovered the empty chemical shells, and was in process of inspecting one (presumably checking that it wouldn't go BOOM). I will freely admit it was a rather unflattering picture...he was clearly hot, dirty, tired, and the Iraqi photographer caught him at an angle where his jowls hung down -- perhaps appropriately, he looked like a bloodhound. There are several lessons in this. The problem arose not from US government action -- indeed, the US government nominated him. The problem came from US media, who, other than the Post ombudsman, gave very limited coverage after Blix accepted him. I have seen no news media coverage indicating that he has, in fact, played a valuable role. While many criticisms are aimed at government, there is a need to counterbalance media driven by sensationalism. In a case like this, the story was dropped after it was no longer titillating. So, as we discuss communication among Netizens, consider not just government policy concerns, but policy concerns about other actors: media, activist groups at all ends of the spectrum, multinationals, etc. ------------------------------ End of Netizens-Digest V1 #414 ******************************