Netizens-Digest Thursday, May 10 2001 Volume 01 : Number 391 Netizens Association Discussion List Digest In this issue: Re: [netz] All packets are created equal Re: [netz] All packets are created equal Re: [netz] All packets are created equal Re: [netz] All packets are created equal [netz] Basic Net Services Re: [netz] Basic Net Services ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 18:50:59 -0400 From: "R, v Head" Subject: Re: [netz] All packets are created equal To be more apt, shouldn't your analogy make special provision for Cadillacs? After all, Very Important People shouldn't have to travel on the same roads as my 1989 Buick, eh? On Fri, 4 May 2001 15:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Greg Skinner writes: > If I might draw an analogy between Internet traffic and vehicle > traffic, should all traffic be treated equally, or should there be provisions > for certain types of traffic, such as fire fighters, police, or ambulances? > > --gregbo > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 16:02:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Skinner Subject: Re: [netz] All packets are created equal More analogies ... If someone decides to pay for priority, insured, or certified postal services, is that wrong? Should all postal material be treated equally? Suppose the differential services routers are deployed on networks such as AOL's or Earthlink's where people are paying for access to the network. If people are willing to pay more money, shouldn't they be entitled to a higher quality of service? Back to the previous analogy, the USPS does not seem to have suffered as a result of differential services. There has not been (to my knowledge) a reduced overall quality of service of regular postal material as a result of priority services. - --gregbo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 01:20:48 +0200 From: Hans Erik Nilsson Subject: Re: [netz] All packets are created equal >If I might draw an analogy between Internet traffic and vehicle traffic, >should all traffic be treated equally, or should there be provisions for >certain types of traffic, such as fire fighters, police, or ambulances? > >--gregbo While on the subject, (not really!), what's the proper procedure for un-subcribing from this list?? /H Mr. Hans Erik Nilsson of Light Years - Integral Communications http://www.lightyears.se Voice: +46 70 445 02 78 SMS: 0704450278@sms.comviq.se >Standard disclaimer file active< ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:35:08 -0400 From: "R, v Head" Subject: Re: [netz] All packets are created equal I don't know a lot about it, but I've read of an "InterNet II" which is currently limited to the few specialized research institutions who constituted the 'Net of the 1980s. Supposedly this "elite net" is MUCH faster than the net which the rest of us may use. As I understand it, its membership is limited now, while its bugs are stomped, and it is eventually to be opened to the rest of us. On Fri, 4 May 2001 16:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Greg Skinner writes: > More analogies ... > > If someone decides to pay for priority, insured, or certified postal > services, > is that wrong? Should all postal material be treated equally? > > Suppose the differential services routers are deployed on networks > such as > AOL's or Earthlink's where people are paying for access to the > network. If > people are willing to pay more money, shouldn't they be entitled to > a > higher quality of service? > > Back to the previous analogy, the USPS does not seem to have > suffered as a > result of differential services. There has not been (to my > knowledge) a > reduced overall quality of service of regular postal material as a > result of > priority services. > > --gregbo > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:13:56 -0400 From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" Subject: [netz] Basic Net Services I've become concerned that recent discussions have focused away from the important policy inssues, and wandered variously into not-quite-correct discussions of current technologies, reviews of historical evolution, and some diatribes about corporate and other government malfeasance (or at least nonfeasance). Now, if there it is a true policy that everything is equal on the net, in my opinion, everything is doomed. But it is not unreasonable, I believe, to identify a set of basic -- "lifeline" -- services that MUST be supported, and even perhaps with some availability guarantees by all participating providers. Any service guarantees, of course, would have to be associated with workload expectations. It is not reasonable to assume 5 minute email delivery given 10 text messages per person per day, and then have to cope with thousands of spammed messages carrying large graphic files. Basic User Services - ------------------- So what might be the basic services? Note that I make no profit/nonprofit distinctions as to who operates the service, and am avoiding funding issues. Running through this, incidentally, is the set of expectations of the end user. It is easier to use a web interface to mail than a POP server and dedicated mail client like Eudora or Pine, even though the web interface needs more support. 1. Email. I would suggest that email is one such basic service, with a rough delivery goal of 20-30 minutes for a text message of moderate size. This service needs high availability, not at the level of a life support system. 2. Bulletin board service Not a very precise term, but essentially USENET. There may need to be restrictions based on sheer volumes of transmitting image files, and also on possible illegalities involving warez. 3. Voice If voice over IP becomes widespread, it needs the same sort of reliability as conventional telephony 4. Entertainmment video Not a critical service -- economic models need to comply with those of current free-space broadcasting 5. Educational streaming content When cost-effective, funded through educational channels. I know, for example, of a large Southern US hospital system that has greatly decreased its staff training costs by obtaining a channel from the regional cable TV system, and putting professional medical education on it -- which their staff can watch from home as convenient. 6. Gaming A surprisingly resource-intensive service that also may serve as a jumping off point for malicious hacking, it is NOT a vital service and needs an explicit funding model. 7. Electronic commerce Since this is quite convenient for many consumers, and potentially profitable for businesses, it has a value. I see support for it as funded from transaction fees or taxes. 8. General information browsing "The Web," and I'm not sure how to characterize it. Basic Infrastructure Services - ----------------------------- The network(s) that provide these services need to have a certain level of expectation of reliability. If that means they all need to move to corporate level security to protect against very real world malicious hacking and outright criminal behavior, that will have to be done insofar as it protects networks rather than servers. At some point in planning for reliability, network operators have to plan for natural disasters. They need alternate sources for electricity, both to run their equipment and to cool it and to see the equipment in the dark. They may need alternate physical paths out of an area. It's worth noting that a number of cities (e.g., Washington DC) are having their traffic disrupted by uncoordinated cable burials by different companies, where other cities, such as San Jose, routinely put in dark fiber whenever they do road or sewer construction, and then lease it to the providers. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:47:47 +0200 From: "jul" Subject: Re: [netz] Basic Net Services This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01C0D992.78F8D580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:13 PM Subject: [netz] Basic Net Services > I've become concerned that recent discussions have focused > away from the important policy issues, and wandered variously into > not-quite-correct discussions of current technologies, reviews of > historical evolution, and some diatribes about corporate and other > government malfeasance (or at least nonfeasance). > It seems quite important to me, even though I'm not an expert. > > Now, if there it is a true policy that everything is equal on the > net, in my opinion, everything is doomed. > I don't think so. Everything should be free, and dependant on funding... And funding should depend on understanding. Yes I know, that might be too much to expect ;). > But it is not unreasonable, I believe, to identify a set of basic > -- "lifeline" -- services that MUST be supported, and even perhaps > with some availability guarantees by all participating providers. > Any service guarantees, of course, would have to be associated > with workload expectations. It is not reasonable to assume 5 > minute email delivery given 10 text messages per person per day, > Now you want me to hang myself ;). I need at least 100 messages a day, even though I might survive with 50 of them (hoping for better days). What do you expect from me? To go to Pleistocene, and carve my messages in stone and throw them into the recipient heads? Like, you've got a message? > > and then have to cope with thousands of spammed messages > carrying large graphic files. > That depends on how graphic they really are ;). > > Basic User Services > ------------------- > > So what might be the basic services? Note that I make no > profit/nonprofit distinctions as to who operates the service, and am > avoiding funding issues. Running through this, incidentally, is the > set of expectations of the end user. It is easier to use a web > interface to mail than a POP server and dedicated mail client like > Eudora or Pine, even though the web interface needs more support. > Please don't take my POP3 from me ;). > > 1. Email. > > I would suggest that email is one such basic service, with a rough > delivery goal of 20-30 minutes for a text message of moderate size. > This service needs high availability, not at the level of a life > support system. > No, no , no. It is life support related. Howard, you don't want to hurt an innocent human being like me. Right? > > 2. Bulletin board service > > Not a very precise term, but essentially USENET. There may need to > be restrictions based on sheer volumes of transmitting image files, > and also on possible illegalities involving warez. > Come on Howard, I love image files ;). > > 3. Voice > > If voice over IP becomes widespread, it needs the same sort of > reliability as conventional telephony. > Yes. We agree now, except that I want more... I want to know what she looks like ;). Actually, this is a joke, as long as she makes sense. Otherwise, graphic stimuli can help, but not much. > > 4. Entertainmment video > > Not a critical service -- economic models need to comply with those > of current free-space broadcasting > I don't know. Are there any nice girls there? ;) > > 5. Educational streaming content > > When cost-effective, funded through educational channels. I know, > for example, of a large Southern US hospital system that has greatly > decreased its staff training costs by obtaining a channel from the > regional cable TV system, and putting professional medical education > on it -- which their staff can watch from home as convenient. > I agree, but... Why do they watch girls so much then? > 6. Gaming > > A surprisingly resource-intensive service that also may serve as a > jumping off point for malicious hacking, it is NOT a vital service > and needs an explicit funding model. > I don't care, if there are no girls there ;). > > 7. Electronic commerce > > Since this is quite convenient for many consumers, and potentially > profitable for businesses, it has a value. I see support for it as > funded from transaction fees or taxes. > I couldn't care less. They'll fund it, don't doubt it. > > 8. General information browsing > > "The Web," and I'm not sure how to characterize it. > I don't care, just don't take that information source from me. > > Basic Infrastructure Services > ----------------------------- > > The network(s) that provide these services need to have a certain > level of expectation of reliability. If that means they all need to > move to corporate level security to protect against very real world > malicious hacking and outright criminal behavior, that will have to > be done insofar as it protects networks rather than servers. > You may be right, but you haven't mention graphic services for a long time now. > > At some point in planning for reliability, network operators have to > plan for natural disasters. > Isn't the Internet the ultimate post nuclear war communication system? It should ensure (1) the command line services, and (2) graphic services for the rest of us ;), while they play their war games. > > They need alternate sources for electricity, both to run their > equipment and to cool it and to see the equipment in the dark. > They need electricity to cook coffee too, not to mention watching those graphic files... > > They may need alternate physical paths out of an area. It's worth > noting that a number of cities (e.g., Washington DC) are having their > traffic disrupted by uncoordinated cable burials by different > companies, > Definitely bad for some files distribution. > > where other cities, such as San Jose, routinely put in > dark fiber whenever they do road or sewer construction, > and then lease it to the providers. > That's smart. Unfortunately the rest of the world is not San Jose. Personally, I like this list serious as it is. I just couldn't resist this. In my opinion, IP numbers should be arranged in levels, allowing individual servers to point wherever. If you allow linking names with numbers, you can have duplicate names, leaving it to surfers to go wherever they want to... they'd have name 1, name 2 &c (with descriptions)... Julian Ams .) - ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01C0D992.78F8D580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" = <hcb@clark.net>
To: <netizens@columbia.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:13 = PM
Subject: [netz] Basic Net=20 Services

 
> I've become concerned that recent = discussions=20 have focused
> away from  the important = policy issues,=20 and wandered variously into
> not-quite-correct discussions of = current=20 technologies, reviews of
> historical evolution, and some = diatribes about=20 corporate and other
> government malfeasance (or at least=20 nonfeasance).
>
It seems quite important to me, even = though I'm not=20 an expert.
>
> Now, if there it is a true policy that = everything is=20 equal on the
> net, in my opinion, everything is doomed. =20
>
I don't think so.  Everything = should be free,=20 and dependant on
funding... And funding should depend on = understanding.  Yes
I know, that might be too much to = expect=20 ;).
 
> But it is not  unreasonable, = I believe,=20 to identify a set of basic
> -- "lifeline" --  services = that MUST be=20 supported, and even perhaps
> with some availability = guarantees by all=20 participating providers. 
> Any service guarantees, of = course, would=20 have to be associated
> with = workload expectations.  It is=20 not reasonable to assume 5
> minute email delivery given = 10 text=20 messages per person per day,
>
Now you want me to hang myself = ;).  I need at=20 least 100 messages
a day, even though I might survive with = 50 of them=20 (hoping for better
days). What do you expect from me? To = go to=20 Pleistocene, and
carve my messages in stone and throw = them into the=20 recipient
heads? Like, you've got a = message?
>
> and then have to cope with  = thousands of=20 spammed messages
> carrying large graphic files. =
>
That depends on how graphic they really = are=20 ;).
>
> Basic User Services
> = - -------------------
>=20
> So what might be the basic services?  Note that I make no =
>=20 profit/nonprofit distinctions as to who operates the service, and am =
>=20 avoiding funding issues. Running through this, incidentally, is the =
> set=20 of expectations of the end user.  It is easier to use a web =
>=20 interface to mail than a POP server and dedicated mail client like =
>=20 Eudora or Pine, even though the web interface needs more = support.
>=20
Please don't take my POP3 from me ;).
>
> 1.  Email.
>
> I would suggest that email is = one=20 such basic service, with a rough
> delivery goal of 20-30 minutes = for a=20 text message of moderate size.
> This service needs high = availability,=20 not at the level of a life
> support system.
>
No, no , no.  It is life support related.  Howard, you = don't want=20 to hurt
an innocent human being like me.  Right? 
>
> 2.  Bulletin board service
>
> Not a very = precise=20 term, but essentially USENET.  There may need to
> be = restrictions=20 based on sheer volumes of transmitting image files,
> and also on = possible illegalities involving warez.
>
Come on Howard, I love image files ;).
> 
> 3.  Voice
>
> If voice over IP = becomes=20 widespread, it needs the same sort of
> reliability as = conventional=20 telephony.
>
Yes.  We agree now, except that I want more...  I want to = know
what she looks like ;).  Actually, this is a joke, as long as = she=20
makes sense.  Otherwise, graphic stimuli can help, but not=20 much.
>
> 4.  Entertainmment video
>
> Not a critical = service=20 - -- economic models need to comply with those
> of current = free-space=20 broadcasting
>
I don't know.  Are there any nice girls there? ;)
>
> 5.  Educational streaming content
> =
> When=20 cost-effective, funded through educational channels.  I know, =
> for=20 example, of a large Southern US hospital system that has greatly =
>=20 decreased its staff training costs by obtaining a channel from the =
>=20 regional cable TV system, and putting professional medical education =
> on=20 it -- which their staff can watch from home as convenient.
>
I agree, but...  Why do they watch girls so much = then? 
> 6.  Gaming
>
> A surprisingly = resource-intensive=20 service that also may serve as a
> jumping off point for = malicious=20 hacking, it is NOT a vital service
> and needs an explicit = funding=20 model.
>
I don't care, if there are no girls there ;).
> 
> 7.  Electronic commerce
>
> = Since this=20 is quite convenient for many consumers, and potentially
> = profitable for=20 businesses, it has a value.  I see support for it as
> = funded from=20 transaction fees or taxes.
>
I couldn't care less.  They'll fund it, don't doubt it.
> 
> 8.  General information browsing
> =
>=20 "The Web," and I'm not sure how to characterize it.
>
I don't care, just don't take that information source from = me.
>  
> Basic Infrastructure Services
>=20 - -----------------------------
>
> The network(s) that = provide these=20 services need to have a certain
> level of expectation of=20 reliability.  If that means they all need to
> move to = corporate=20 level security to protect against very real world
> malicious = hacking and=20 outright criminal behavior, that will have to
> be done insofar = as it=20 protects networks rather than servers.
>
You may be right, but you haven't mention graphic services for = a
long time now.
>
> At some point in planning for = reliability,=20 network operators have to
> plan for natural disasters.  =
>
Isn't the Internet the ultimate post nuclear war = communication
system?  It should ensure (1) the command line services, and = (2)
graphic services for the rest of us ;), while they play their = war=20
games.
> 
> They need alternate sources for electricity, both to run = their=20
> equipment and to cool it and to see the equipment in the=20 dark.
>
They need electricity to cook coffee too, not to mention = watching
those graphic files...
>
> They may need alternate = physical=20 paths out of an area.  It's worth
> noting that a number of = cities=20 (e.g., Washington DC) are having their
> traffic disrupted by=20 uncoordinated cable burials by different
> companies,
>
Definitely bad for some files distribution.
>
> where other cities, such as San Jose, routinely put in =
> dark=20 fiber whenever they do road or sewer construction, 
> and = then lease=20 it to the providers.
>
That's smart.  Unfortunately the rest of the world is not San = Jose.=20
 
Personally, I like this list serious as it is.  I just = couldn't=20 resist
this.  In my opinion, IP numbers should be arranged in levels, =
allowing individual servers to point wherever.  If you allow =
linking names with numbers, you can have duplicate names,
leaving it to surfers to go wherever they want to... they'd = have
name 1, name 2 &c (with descriptions)...
 
Julian Ams .)
- ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01C0D992.78F8D580-- ------------------------------ End of Netizens-Digest V1 #391 ******************************